Synergy between the underdog units?

For now this is just theoryhammer, but I wonder what the stronghold has to say about it.

We'v got a great book, with lots of options and a lot of variety. I love it, and yet it hurts that some units still seem underwhelming. Our Tyrants, hunters, gorgors and sabertuskpacks; few people will be inclined to use them as most other options simply outshine these. Last week I posted something about the use of sabertuskpacks and maneaters in one of the hunter threads and this got me thinking.

Let me start with the maneaters. The models are gorgeous, I want them in my army. Some here in the stronghold however have argued that maneaters are merely overgrown ogres/guts (depending on equipment) and I tend to agree at some level. They hit harder, yet at higher cost and unimpressive resilience compared to the ladz. They do bring 2 special abilities though with which to distinguish themselves from the common soldiery and to justify including them. To me this means making the most of their deployment abilities and it is in regard to this ability I think that the mentioned underdogs can pull their weight.

In the hunter thread I posted an idea about scouting stubborn maneaters and the banner of discipling ahead of the bulk, backed up by a stubborn hunter vanguarding his kitties after them. Being completely selfsufficient allows them to put the kind of pressure nothing else in the army can and the inclusion of some gorgors adds to this threat significantly I think. Mournfangs are fast and hitty but at ld.7 I wouldn't send them out of your general+bsb bubble. A bubble which now faces some problems as the banner of discipline is employed elsewhere. This means to either make do with ld.8 or including a Tyrant.

Now that I am at it I wanted to jump to the sabertuskpacks defence from another angle. ld.4 is a bummer but can be solved by including a hunter. Their attacks are pretty good, especially considering their 'smaller than ogresized base'. 4 kitties cost about the same as two guts and occupy a slightly larger surface. It sucks that the second rank doesn't get to attack that much and that they are pretty fragile (solvable by certain spells though). These two combined however make for an interesting picture. A full pack with a hunter has 6 kitties in the back so it takes a significant amount of wounds to start hacking away at the bulk of their damage output. On the long run it seems that a tuskpack might equall the output of an ogre unit at about the same cost (disregarding characters) and from a slightly larger footprint.

As I said this has been theoryhammer but I think there is more to some of those units that has been disregarded so far. I think togther they can do stuff the rest of army can't and I like that. A question I am faced with atm is whether this kind of preasure still has a place in this game and how to make it blend with the rest of the army. Can it ever be made a "competitive" choice?

Wondering what you are all thinking, about this settup, how to incorperate it into an army and about it's validity. Cheers.

Sounds like a fun and effective combo that can give any army something to worry about.  The only down side is that I only have two metal saber tusks.  Might have to proxy it a few times before investing  over 100 in saber tusks.   I really wish they would have redone those models...

Remember that sabretusks in the second rank of a unit will only get 1 attack each.  They are only war beasts after all.  They can also be stomped and thunderstomped.

I wouldn't consider Maneaters to be underdogs - they're this army's Swiss Army Knife, and they give you the ability to have some sort of answer to matchups the rest of the force can't answer. For example, if your force mainly counts Ogres and Gnoblars among its Core, tin cans will give you all sorts of problems - S7 (thanks to the Great Weapon) Stubborn Maneaters will fix that problem for cheap. You can run Scouting or Vanguard Maneaters as alternative warmachine hunters that also pack a wallop. If you're leaving the Leadbelchers at home, the Maneaters can provide shooting, along with A LOT of S5 attacks. So on and so forth. If you can't find a use for these guys, you're not looking hard enough.

Tyrants can also be good, but only if you've taken care of your magic defense first. My personal favorite method to do that is 2 Firebellies - one with a Dispel Scroll, another with the Hellheart. Those two should be enough to put pressure on enemy mages and thus allow you to spend points on a big fighty Tyrant, who has the advantage of giving us a higher Ld bubble.

Sabretusks are useful for dummy drops if nothing else - you always want to be able to see as much of your opponent's army as possible, and (barring MSU, which I have major misgivings on) Ogres don't have many cheap drops that can do what the 'tusks do. If they kill something in combat (and they're certainly capable), well, that's just a bonus.

I'm ambivalent about Gorgers - they seem pretty beastly, and the BRB Ambushers rule is pretty boss, but they cost quite a bit. I'd take a flyer on one, just to see if they work.

Agree on the maneaters, they are far from being an underdog.  They are worth every point just to get the WS4, S5, A4 and most importantly I3. everything else is just gravy.

Gorgers I've tied once in 5 games with the new book, and I'm looking to take them again, but I must confess to having trouble finding the points in 2400.  However, they are very useful and I would gladly take 2-3 of them on a regular basis.  They can pin blocks rather well, and against small/medium units they can rip things to shreds.  As backup for taking out war machines, just in case your cats can't get there, I'd consider them.

I've tinkered with thoughts of having a super fast army consisting of a hunter with a full pack, along with a unit of scouting maneaters, a second unit of vanguarding maneaters and mournfangs to slam up the center.  You could even add gorgers to taste for additional background havoc.  I think it would be overwhelming against some armies to have have your army starting 12 inches away from them turn 1! 

You probably wouldn't get too many models in this way but it would certainly bring the pressure on very fast, probably best against armies that need time to peck away at you either through magic or shooting.

I've tinkered with thoughts of having a super fast army consisting of a hunter with a full pack, along with a unit of scouting maneaters, a second unit of vanguarding maneaters and mournfangs to slam up the center.  You could even add gorgers to taste for additional background havoc.  I think it would be overwhelming against some armies to have have your army starting 12 inches away from them turn 1! 

You probably wouldn't get too many models in this way but it would certainly bring the pressure on very fast, probably best against armies that need time to peck away at you either through magic or shooting.

Problem is, that is a lot of Special points. I'd like to see what the Core section would look like in this army. Not saying that you shouldn't try it, I'd just like to see a complete list.

I wouldn't consider Maneaters to be underdogs - they're this army's Swiss Army Knife, and they give you the ability to have some sort of answer to matchups the rest of the force can't answer.

Neither do I an actually this was exactely the point that I was making (trying to make?). I didn't want to pose maneaters as underdogs, but as the key to make the underdogs work.

Agree on the maneaters, they are far from being an underdog.  They are worth every point just to get the WS4, S5, A4 and most importantly I3. everything else is just gravy.

I don't think I fully agree here though. They might be worth it, but the point difference with other ogre units is a thing to consider. IMO their special abilities justify the point difference more than their statboost, that is where they really excel instead of just being better at it than the other ladz.

The point of excelling brought me to scouts and vanguard, those are the rules with which they really distinguish themselves and is that point that I wanted to exploit as much as possible, so in came stubborn and the ld.banner. It than occured to me that a hunterpack does this better than any other unit, that gorgers become more usefull in conjunction to these two units ploughing away behind enemy lines and that the Tyrant becomes a lot more attractive general option now that the banner of discipline is elsewhere.

So while I don't think maneaters are an underdog unit, I do think they complement eachother well and I also think you can get even more out of your maneaters if you do use these units. Since the maneatermodels rock big time this was a thing for me to consider. Lots of open questions for me though.

Remember that sabretusks in the second rank of a unit will only get 1 attack each.  They are only war beasts after all.

Yes, I did consider that. 2x2 they still dish out 8 good attacks though, at a frontage of 50mm, as opposed to the guts 6 attacks (which depending on the situation at hand will or will not be better) at a 40mm frontage. Being mere warbeast does help out in some regard. The first 12 wounds only loose you six it attacks, as opposed to the guts 12 attacks. I think the tusks will quiet often do better in prolonged combats than most ogre units, especially ones our buffspells kick in. Ogres are obviously still the better chocktroopers though.

I have to say that I love my gorgers, they always seem to do their job behind enemy lines quite effectively.

Last games one ate a dwarf Xbow unit then a grudge thrower, then proceeded to the organ gun.
Another game he came on and chomped a nice sized unit of Helf archers.

I might add its the fear factor, as all of my opponents keep their expensive units off the back board and sides just incase a gorger sniffs them out. This alone is why I take them with me to battle.

I think Maneaters are very viable now for a number of reasons.

Their Initiative 3 is nice compared to ASL IG's and I2 Ogres (Bulls).

Str5 is very nice as well.

Gorgers have their uses as a distraction and for killing War-machines. I have used them in my first 3 games and they have paid their points back in 2 out of 3 games.

Yhetees I am yet to field these guys but you can look at them as being cheap flammable Maneaters. Could be useful vs. VC as ethereals are still quite common in their lists.

The problem with some of the less-competitive choices is that they don't do what they do nearly as well as their competition.  Take Gorgers, for example.  For 90 points, you get a model that can go through war machines like crazy.  Sounds good, right?

Except he can charge no earlier than T3, by which time you had better be in combat anyways.

Likewise, Yhettees are faster Ogres who are outdone by Mournfang Riders.

I expect to see more Tyrants assuming that the FAQ clarifies that Slaughtmasters cannot, in fact, take magic armor.  If the FAQ confirms that they can, there's really not much of a point in taking a Tyrant, outside of a low-magic, high-defense game.

Gorgers play the role of disrupting an opponents lines. If your opponent knows you have them they will deploy differently. Also when the Gorgers comer on the opponent will often draw troops away from their front-line to deal with whats going on with their flank or rear.

I see Gorgers being particularly good in the Battle for the Pass scenario and vs. Empire, Dwarf gun-lines.

However I probably won't be using Gorgers at games under 2.4k.