1200 pts for tournament

I'm new to the forum, and new to OK.
I've always liked Ogres, but they were lacking that extra thing that would make me eat the gnoblar and not just feel sorry for it.
Several years later - Stonehorn and Thundertusk, along with Mournfangs. Need I say more.

There are some restrictions in the tournament, but I'm within bounds afaik (2 breath weapons max, so I just barely made that one, also max 300 pts in 1 unit).

Heroes (293/300):
Firebelly (General); Fencer's Blades
Bruiser; BSB, HA&IF

Core (551/300):
8 Ogres; FC, Ironfists
5 Iron Guts; FC, LoG, SoD

Special (353/600):
3 Mournfangs; FC, Dragonhide Banner, HA & IF
3x1 Sabretooth

Total:            1197

I tried to fit in a Stonehorn, but I'm having trouble dividing the core into acceptable units (since max 300 pts in one).

Any changes that I should make? (Like dropping the characters for a single SM or Tyrant)
My general looks rather fragile, but with WS10, T5 and 4 wounds I think he can survive for a bit at least.
I was thinking that both of my characters should go with the Ironguts, and try to have the Ogre unit within 12" at all times.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!
The tournament is October 8th, so the more time I have to paint models, the better.

I decided to mix it up a little.
Dropped 2 Ogres, 1 Sabretooth and the Dragonhide Banner - added 3 Belchers and GP banner in the fangs instead.

Seems like a good idea?

Had my first battle with Ogres today, and I have a question that I'm dying to get the answer to:
Are impact hits, breath attacks and stomps turned into "magical" attacks when my Firebelly has a Magical Weapon?
We played it like they weren't affected, which felt right imo.

Sorry about so little painted (both terrain and models, and also models not completely assembled), but the Battle rep!

My deployment:

Belly, Fangs (FC), Belchers, Guts (FC) with BSB, Ogres (FC). 2 Sabres on each flank (played by Flesh Hounds since I lack the models). I get Flaming Sword with my Belly.

His deployment:

2 Wraiths + Banshee, 21 Ghouls (champ), 20 GG (FC), skellie bunker with vamp lord, 21 Ghouls (champ). He gets Curse, Gaze and Van Hels.

Ogre Turn 1:

Everything advances. I get Flaming Swords off on my Belchers, but they only do 1 wound to his Wraiths.

Vampire Turn 1:

Wraiths charge Fangs. Rest moves up. And after his magic phase:



So his vamp lord got off Curse of Years on my Guts with Irrestistable Force. It did 1 wound to my guts... And 7 wounds to his GG, 7 dead Skeletons from the bunker and 1 dead Vamp lord from the 3 result on his miscast! WOW!
The Wraiths won the combat 2-1, but the Fangs held on a 6 (and within BSB range just in case), but the Banshee crumbled at the end of the magic phase before she got to do anything (that's how he allocated the damage anyhow) when the general died.

Ogre Turn 2:

Charge in with Belly into the Wraiths (I just see them and can make the charge with a 90 degree turn), Guts charge into GG and Ogres into the other Ghoul unit.
Magic does nothing.
My Sabretusk moves in to block a flank charge on my Belly, but now I realise that I should have been 1" away and not up in their face. Same same though.

Result of combat:


GGs are wiped by the guts and I reform to face the flank of the Ghouls (although I shifted the centre of the unit, so again a miss from me, but still the same). One Wraith survives and the Ogres win against the Ghouls

Vampire Turn 2:

Remaining Skellies and Wraith crumbles. Left Ghouls charge and kill the Sabretusk and reforms to face the Belly.

Ogre Turn 3:

My Belly blocks the Fangs from charging (but I think I might have been able to try and charge the right Ghouls together with the Guts, and have him fight on the corner between Ogres and Guts becauase of true line of sight etc?). Instead my Belly moves to the left of the unit and proceeds to breathe fire; go Flaming Sword and Breath! 2 survive for an odd moment before being obliterated by the belchers.

Close combat sees a challenge between the Ghoul champ and Gut champ:


He not only survived the combat, but managed to wound my champ!

Vamp turn 3:

Dust to dust. Nothing left as the Ghoul champ crumbles.

Massacre to Ogres!

In regards to breath weapons and the possibility of them being Magical Attacks - is the Dragonhide Banner breath attack magical?

Interesting. It doesn't explicitly say so, but it comes from a magic item. I'm not sure which way I'd call that one.

Thinking about removing fencer's blades from the Firebelly and adding Ruby ring or a dispel scroll instead, or upping him to level 2.

Also; my Mournfang champ and standard bearer:


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First of many!


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Going with a snow/ice/frost theme so the base is yet to be finished.

The tournament was pushed back to the 15, so 3 days of painting to go.
Although the rest will just be base coloured to get some paint on everyone.

So... I finished second last place in the tournament. 
I did a last adjustment to the list this morning - I removed Fencer's Blades and gave him Potion of Speed (which I never used...), Dispel Scroll (used once) and some 5 pt magic sword (which was only in case of ethereals).

The first game I made a major tactical error:
His bloodletters where next to my Ironguts (beside their left flank). I had vision to them to charge them in the front - and that would have been the best thing to do. However.
   My Mournfangs were to the right of my IGs and could potentially charge the bloodletters head on - if my IGs could move out of the way.
   20/20 hindsight, I think I might have actually been able to charge with BOTH units into his letters (can't remeber the exact situation.

But I took a tactical leap of faith - a long charge with my IGs on his Horrors. It failed. And they only moved 3" forward - blocking my Fangs from wheeling to make it into the few models that they could actually see.
   Which instead lead to my IGs (with general Firebelly and BSB) get wiped out after getting charged in the flank his next turn. I never did enough damage to take back the points, and instead he wiped me out.

In the next game I made another error. I was facing Chaos Warriors and was just wiping the floor with his units. When my Fangs overran into the flank of his knights, I thought it was going to be the end of his army.
Only 1 fell to impact hits and his lord proceeded to Make Way! so I was only in combat with him. The error was me accepting the challange with my champ. Why would I do that. 
The champ survived - Fangs lost combat but held (Hmm. I had 1 for flank, 1 for charge, 1 for banner and 1 wound from the impact hits (4). He did 2 wounds and had a banner. Anything else he could have gotten CR from? Otherwise I should have won that combat, and he should have lost frenzy (and ITP from future fear tests) ... Oh well.  ).

Now it was my turn, so I charge in with my IGs (with Firebelly and Bruiser) to tip the combat in my favour.
I didn't do a single wound to the Knights - in spite of getting 10 hits with my breath attack. It was just insane.
My IGs ran, but Fangs held on snake eyes!
They died the next turn though, and my IGs reformed (now short a standard and BSB) and were taken down shortly after because I held as a charge reaction. Perhaps I should have chosen flee instead - but I wasn't fighting for top position so. 

My last game vs Dark Elves ended a draw - but the main source of my loss was Okkam's on his BG charging in on my Fangs. He got IF on the spell, so I couldn't scroll it, and I failed my Sabretusk shenanigans because his unit was so wide he could reach the fangs even though he had to wheel up. A gazillion S9 attacks ended them.
   I had 4 miscasts in the battle (only having Flaming Sword kind of sucked because I rolled above average for all my magic phases). I even put my Firebelly behind his BG when I tossed the last Flaming Sword on my Leadbelchers to blow up his few remaining models, but I only got the small blast.
The previous turn, however, I torched 8 or 9 BGs with my Breath Attack powered by Flaming Sword. Fun times.

I just remembered - I ran into an odd situation in one of the matches.
The only models left in my unit of Fangs was the Standard Bearer and Champion.
There were 2 wounds on the unit, and one wound on the champion. They broke from combat, killing the standard bearer. Would the wounds now land on my champion, killing him on the spot as well?

We didn't play it like that, but it didn't affect the outcome either (he died shortly after and was one of the few targets left). It feels like the champ was supposed to die though, now that I think about wounds being on the unit and not the standard bearer. 

Now it was my turn, so I charge in with my IGs (with Firebelly and Bruiser) to tip the combat in my favour.
I didn't do a single wound to the Knights - in spite of getting 10 hits with my breath attack. It was just insane

That is just horribly bad dice rolls, you might have to sacrifice the dice to the maw for that.

I just remembered - I ran into an odd situation in one of the matches.
The only models left in my unit of Fangs was the Standard Bearer and Champion.
There were 2 wounds on the unit, and one wound on the champion. They broke from combat, killing the standard bearer. Would the wounds now land on my champion, killing him on the spot as well?

Not sure if I understand this correctly, with who was alive in that unit and where the wounds were directed.
If it's as basic as I think it is and no attacks were directed at the champion, the the standard rules would apply, removing all rank and file then musician, standard bearer and finally champion.

I'm not sure if this changes since he already had a wound?

I think around the page about them in the Big rule book anyway.

Liked your list as I am doing a club campaign of 1200, will post my list when I play in own topic.

I have no idea if this helped you at all.

Cool, another reply! 

Looking forward to checking out your 1200 pt list, maybe you'll include something different.
I want to include another spell; having just 1 spell and 11 power dice is just such a waste.
   I thought the Leadbelchers were too few to actually do some damage in the shooting phase. But they are Ogres and did their share of beating in close combat against both letters and chaos warriors.

As for the champ and standard bearer situation:
There were 2 wounds (spare) on the unit, and one wound on the champ (from a challange). The unit broke from combat, meaning the standard bearer is slain. There is now only the champion left, with 2 wounds remaining. However, there are still 2 spare wounds on the unit (I don't think they just vanish because the standard died from fleeing), which would sum up to 3 wounds on the champion, thus killing him.
At least that's how I think I should have played it. 

Hi,

I am not getting the wounds thing...

So, was your hero still in the challenge it got teh wound from when the unit broke?
If that is the case than i don't think he would get the 'remaining' wounds as he can't be attacked by the rest of the unit.

Also how did you end up having 'spare' wounds after CR, when you break?

Ok, I'll try to be more clear, but I'm afraid I might not recall the entire situation.

I believe my champion had suffered his wound earlier in a challenge and this was another combat later in the game.
I only had the standard and champ left, and suffered 2 wounds in the combat (not enough to kill the standard bearer, so they're spare wounds).
I lose combat and have to take a break test, which I fail.
The Standard is removed as a casualty because I broke from combat.
So now I have my champ running away alone, which had suffered 1 wound prior in a challenge.
However, I still have the 2 spare wounds on the unit - I don't think they vanish just because I had to remove my standard bearer.

So 1 wound on the champ, plus 2 spare wounds, means that I have 3 wounds suffered and should remove him as well. Is this correct?

Had there been a challenge in that last fight when they broke, would it have made a differance?

I'm considering changing my list to:
Heroes (300/300):
Firebelly (G); Level 2
Bruiser; BSB, HA & GW

Core (351/300):
6 Ogres; FC, IF   
3 Ironguts

Special (545/600):
3 Mournfangs; HA & IF
3x1 Sabretusks
4 Maneaters(ITP&Stubborn); FC,LoG,SoD,HA,3xAHW

Total:                  1196

Reasons:
Leadbelchers' shooting wasn't that impressive with just 3 of them, and I can't justify putting more points into shooting in this small army. I feel like the points could be better spent elsewhere.

Ironguts are probably a great bunker, but it's so much riding on it and when it just ran from those knights after failing so hard - it was hard not to notice the lack of stubborn. Since my hero points are REALLY tight, and I want to increase magic a bit, there's no room for the Crown. So replacement bunker is Maneaters.

Mournfangs are great. But without the magical banner I see little reason to include a standard that's just removed if the unit breaks. Musician for what reforms? Champ is good, but points are tight, so had to go.

Firebelly did just fine, but only 1 spell is so limited, which is why I got IF/Miscast 4 times in the last battle just tossing my dice to get my one spell through. I used the scroll once, but had enough dice to try and dispel at the time. Potion of speed I never used, and the magic sword was moot. So level 2 here I come.

Bruiser BSB feels like he could use a GW and dish out damage. I used the re-rolls several times, so I find it hard to let it go. Otherwise I would invest these points in the Firebelly (Ring and more magic items).

Maneaters are my new addition (these are where those Leadbelcher and Ironguts points went mostly). I'm not 100% on ITP (since only 6 in the unit it vanishes after 2 bite the dust?) - otherwise I'll go with poison. Stubborn is what I really want.

Sabretusks did very well I think. 3 of them might be too many though in such small games (I mean removing 2 = 1 more Irongut). Any small tweaks would involve these guys to shift points. At the same time I don't want to drop them. They did manage to almost kill a Chaos Sorcerer, caused DE Crossbows some grief and held them in place for my Ogres and actually killed a Bloodcrusher that was wounded by the Leadbelchers against all odds.
   Basically 1 of the Sabretusks did the main work in all battles, while the other tried and failed. Really considering swapping 2 in for 1 Irongut and running the guts in a 2x2 formation.

What do you guys think? I'd love some feedback.

I don't have experience with the Mornfangs and Sabertusks and Maneaters as I havn't got them, was wondering about what you would do against ethereal units in close combat?

You will be riding your ogres on Ld 7 with a reroll, no stubborn. I find that a bit risky against any sort of horde?

How are the Ironguts going to work, could be spent on 4 more ogres, gnoblars? or adding something to the specials as thats seems to be where the main points are spent. They seems to just be there as a block, that strikes last.

Hope this helped with the planning.

Ethereals in close combat is a problem, which is why I have to deal with them by means of magic or, failing that, combat resolution (somehow).

I will be running Maneaters with stubborn, and it will be LD9 on the unit itself (Ld8 Maneaters +1 for SoD), and give a Ld8 bubble from the Firebelly.

The Ironguts will be used as a supporting unit, and my highest S unit to help deal with armoured knights. I hope.

if your standard bearer has a 3 wound profile and takes 2 wounds

The unit takes wounds, not individual RnF models (i.e. everyone but the champ), so the wounds are not strictly on the standard bearer. If I understand correctly from other threads and the rules about multiple wound creatures.

I know the unit takes wounds, but as the Standard Bearer was the last model apart from the champ he would be the one taking the two wounds, agreed?

Still I don't see the two 'spare' wound thing...

The wounds are not spare at all and are applied when they are inflicted.

It is perfectly fine to have a wounded champ and an unwounded standard bearer in a unit.  If the unit was to suffer 2 wounds that were not targeted at the champ, the standard bearer would be taking them as the last RnF model.  If the unit was to break from combat, the standard bearer would be removed as a casualty - but no, the wounds he had on him would NOT jump to the unit champion.  He'd be fleeing with however many wounds he had left.

Now I'm confused.

So the wounds aren't spare if it's only the champ and standard left?

As I mentioned before, I have never read/heard anywhere that there is a such thing as spare wounds after calculating CR...
only excess wounds when calculating CR after a challenge perhaps, but that is not what you are pointing out here.

can you tell us where you read about this rule?

On the multi-wound rule it says:
"Any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by any subsequent attacks."

And in the example it says:
"The wounds left over are not enough to remove another model, so the player must make a note that 2 wounds have been suffered by the unit. If the unit takes another wound from some other attack later in the game, then another Ogre model is removed."

yes, so that is exactly as was explained by Wildcard earlier. but contrary to what I think you are imagining, these wounds are stuck on the one model that they were assigned to.

The first rule simply implies that you note how many wounds are on a model so a subsequent wound may kill a model.
I see how the second part you mention gives you the idea that these wounds could be swapped to the remaining character, but  the way I understand it and anyone I know plays it this is not the case.

Ok.