Character on 2nd rank

Since i didnt want to spoil a very nice report, i figured i'd post it here ......

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=19694.msg285692;topicseen#new

BSB, sat in the 2nd rank of the IG's and never made his way forward.  Sacrificing three IG attacks, since he cannot attack from the second rank as he is a character and not in base to base is still worth it to keep him alive.  Crown of Command makes that unit stubborn.  If necessary the SM would have made the ogres stubborn, but we never really needed it.

That part really bugs me... its not really how its supposed to be played right? My understanding of the rule always was that no matter who is on the second rank, he's always considered to be in contact with who is in front of him in 1st rank.... no?

He can attack.  The only thing that is lost is 1 of the BSB's attacks, as the 2nd rank gets a max of 3 supporting attacks.

Can he?  I thought a character had the option of making way... I think the book says "can".  But was told that if he was not in the front rank could not attack.  If I've been playing this wrong please let me know.  I thought they could but couldn't find it so played that he couldn't, though I know he would only get three attacks supporting.  If so, I'm going back to giving him a GW and letting him chop away with three attacks and being safe.

I think the person who said you can't might be thinking of 7th edition?  In looking around the web it looks like they had to be in base to base (didn't play that edition so I don't know).

Well, I didn't play 7th edition, so I can't answer that question.  The point remains that the character may still make supporting attacks.  He is limited to 3 of these supporting attacks, but he definately can make them.  Your character can also make way if you so choose.  When doing so, he can take the place of any RnF(including bellower and standard). 

Perhaps your opponent was confusing the rules for making way with the rules for refusing a challenge.  When a character refuses a challenge he moves to the back ranks and cannot attack.

Maybe.  Crap, that is what I thought.

So 4-wide unit with full command and another character is fine.  BSB hiding in 2nd rank does not have to make way if you don't want him to, but does get full supporting attacks.

Going to have to straighten him out.

In 7th edition there were no supporting attacks. So you needed to be in base-to-base contact to attack.

Maybe.  Crap, that is what I thought.

So 4-wide unit with full command and another character is fine.  BSB hiding in 2nd rank does not have to make way if you don't want him to, but does get full supporting attacks.

Going to have to straighten him out.

or even better... 3 frontage with 2 character in the back.... just saying

Maybe.  Crap, that is what I thought.

So 4-wide unit with full command and another character is fine.  BSB hiding in 2nd rank does not have to make way if you don't want him to, but does get full supporting attacks.

Going to have to straighten him out.

Just remember that if characters move in a unit at all, and that unit is in combat, they have to move to the front rank... so if he isnt behind someone in B2B, moving him means putting him in the thick of being targeted.

Thats not quite correct.  With make way, a character who is not in base contact can move into base contact with an enemy.  If your unit is flank/rear charged, this would enable the character to make way into these files/ranks, which is not necessarily the front rank of your unit.   

The character can also move around at the end of combat via a combat reform.  If the character ends the round of combat and is not in B2B with any enemy models, then it may be placed anywhere withing the unit through a combat reform.  There are some restrictions to the combat reform, but none of them prevent a character from moving about between locations that are not in B2B with he enemy.

Right and if we can make way, it doesn't mean that we have to.  So If we have FC and the general in the rank of four, the BSB can, but does not have to, make way.

This is rules lawering at its worst.  Clearly ogres lead from the front.  Hiding BSBs in second rank may be leagal but you would be being a very poor sportsman to do so especialy in an ogre army.  Shame on your thinling tactics.

Actually using basic rules from the Warhammer Ruleboook is lawyering"? Are you trolling or just new to this?

The rules actually state that Characters _have_ to go to the second rank if there isn't enough space in the first rank. Then, in a combat, they _may_ go into btb contact with an enemy. Hell, in page 100 (of the small book) there's even a small "comment" about leaving characters out of a fight and how it may be a pretty good idea sometimes.

This is rules lawering at its worst.  Clearly ogres lead from the front.  Hiding BSBs in second rank may be leagal but you would be being a very poor sportsman to do so especialy in an ogre army.  Shame on your thinling tactics.

It is not just legal, it is mandatory. I can't put my BSB in the front rank if I go 3 across and have full command. I can Make Way to fight in CC but otherwise he has to go into the second rank. 

As for fluff and sportsmanship, I can totally see a Bruiser BSB who is very likely the Tyrant's "toady" sitting in the back rank yelling at the others, "Git up der 'n smash dem! I'ze would but ol' Spinebite, 'e gotz me hold'n dis 'ere bannar."

This is rules lawering at its worst.  Clearly ogres lead from the front.  Hiding BSBs in second rank may be leagal but you would be being a very poor sportsman to do so especialy in an ogre army.  Shame on your thinling tactics.

Sorry but I personally don't see a real problem here.

Why would a viable tactic be poor sportsmanship?
Just asking...

I am sorry, I may have come on a little strong there.  

To me Ogres are the apex of might is right and take personal combat prowess to exciting new levels in warhammer.  It just seems to not be in the spirit of ogre mentality to use the 3 man rank rule to hide characters from the piddly resistance that thinling armies present. It is for fluff reasons only that I let the little ogre in me out.  This was a rules discussion and I did not respect that.  My bad.

In terms of using rules to win games this is a very viable approach to playing ogres.  Ogres do not enjoy easy protection for characters in the form of mounts.  I will think more on this.

If you want a fluff reason on why to do it think of it as follows:

The biggest, baddest of the Tribe, being your Tyrant/ Bruiser and any other important character, would love to survive the battle. If not only to make sure they fill their belly to the point of bursting with the thinlings and the unforrunate fellow Ogres who went down in the first rank.

They're not smart but are far from stupid

As for fluff and sportsmanship, I can totally see a Bruiser BSB who is very likely the Tyrant's "toady" sitting in the back rank yelling at the others, "Git up der 'n smash dem! I'ze would but ol' Spinebite, 'e gotz me hold'n dis 'ere bannar."

Or what Mercules said.