How necessary are IG's?

New to warhammer, new to ogres. Trying to create my first 2000p. Are IGs mandatory? I just want to build a bit different and think of just ogres for core (and a couple of minimum gnoblar units) and use Leadbelchers as closecombat fighters too... shooting and moving in.

Basicly Im thinking of either shooting heavy and fast or a list with as many furry beasts as possible and almost no shooting.

Well, it depends. Most people tend to use one Irongut unit, mainly for their ability to carry a magic standard (Slaughtermaster in Ironguts with St. of Discipline seems quite popular these days) while their Strength 6 allows them to beat even heavy armoured stuff or monsters.

If they are mandatory is hard to tell, it depends on the rest of your list. Neither Bulls nor Gnoblars can reliably take down armoured units, so you have to compensate that with Special/Rare units. If you go beastie-heavy, it should be no big problem, since the 3 monsters are all Strength 6 and Mournfang cavalry has alot of Str 5 attacks. Shooting heavy could rely on Ironblasters to take down Monsters/Warmachines, Leadbelchers to maw down infantry and maybe Sniper Maneaters to shoot characters.

But either way, it is possible to play without Ironguts for sure!

Thanks alot for your words and wisdom! That was pretty much my thought with the maneaters, mournfangs and Ironblaster! And I know for certain that I will mostly fight against all kinds of elves and some greenskins.

They used to be, although now that Maneaters are more viable and we have Mournfangs and other shock troops they are less so than they once were. I'll still be running mine because I love the unit and they scare the snot out of my regular opponent with all those high strength attacks but there isn't a NEED to unless you don't have anything else that can crack open tough units.

when we lost our AP on our Bulls, we lost the edge they had over Ironguts.

I personally think that IG are not needed, but babysitted with a 2 or 3 defensive character (to minimize their loss), they can be devastating.

You used to NEED them to be successful with Ogres.

Now the new book is out, I think we need them less than ever as we have units and characters that can crack armour and wound the big tough stuff.

At the moment I'm running a unit, but it could dissapear in the future in favour of more Bulls Ogres.

The problem is our Bulls (Ogres) have lost their Armour Piercing ability which means we need the IG's higher strength vs. certain heavily armored troops.

Thanks guys! You have given me some stuff to ponder.

I've done quite well since the new book came out without ever including an IG unit in an army.  With the possibility of two strength buffs (bests and maw lores), you can make a unit of bulls something that armored units needed to worry about... even better, suddenly every bull unit is a potential armor cracker, and if you field several than the opponent can't be sure any armored unit will be safe.

I've found Mournfang dish out enough damage to deal with armored foes, and that the ironblaster nails gribblies well enough that I just don't need IG's heavy hitting power these days.

They are also one of only two units in the army with Ld higher than 7.  Thanks to characters that's not a make-or-break advantage, but various situations will come up where the extra reliability would be very helpful.

Ironguts have a number things going for them: high strength attacks, the ability to use a magic banner, that they are monstrous infantry, and thus give characters "look out, sir!", and that they are a core unit. For all these reasons, and especially the last one, they usually show up in my army. I don't think you need a unit to have an effective lists, though.

The biggest draw of IG compared to Bulls as far as I'm concerned is the ability to take a magical standard, this way I can have the +1 LD on the unit and crown of command on the BSB for a though as nails (albeit expensive) unit.

I like them. I run a medium sized unit (8 or 10) with a Firebelly and the Dragonhide banner. They then have 4d6 hits, plus impacts, plus attacks, plus stomps. Its pretty effective.

Symptomatic of the last few years playing ogres - we're not used to having options. Bulls because we had to, ironguts because we like to win, gnoblars because we could afford them, and scraplaunchers because they rocked. This whole choice thing is cramping my play style.

My answer is pretty simple: Ironguts aren't necessary to play, but if you're not taking them, you're not bringing your A game.

Bulls are, largely, filler. They exist to be potential threats based on characters and buffs. Ironguts are already nasty. If you don't get a spell off, they will still do terrible things to your opponent. Bulls just cannot do that amount of damage.

As mentioned IG's aren't necessary in the new book as we now have quite a number of options.


I am currently running my IG's with the Dragonhide Banner making them a potent unit. The frost breath allows simultaneous striking with re rolling 1's to hit, wound and armour saves on the turn they charge nice!!!

From past experience I don't like relying on Buffs going off (on Bulls/Ogres) as Magic can be very unreliable.

The frost breath allows simultaneous striking with re rolling 1's to hit, wound and armour saves on the turn they charge nice!!!

I might be wrong but I thought the frost breath was only on the second turn of combat?

If the opponents have I1 the effect of the banner happens before they strike so they end up going at the same time as the IG's but I'm guessing it's something that won't happen that often.

The Frost Breathe can be used whenever you want as far as I can see, save it for a juicy enemy unit.

If you get a good round of Impact hits it might be worth saving the Breathe weapon.

Oh ok 

I suppose it's a one use only then.

I was under the impression that breath weapons went at the inititive of the model using it. So an irongut at init 2 would use it then, not making it worthwhile unless fighting against saurus or the like. That is part of the reason why a BSB is usually better as the inititive gap is wider.

Yes I had overlooked the Initiative side of using the Breathe weapon so the ASL is more useful if the Banner is on a Bruiser BSB or a Man eater unit using their I3.  even then it would only be good vs. I2 troops such as undead or Dwarves.

However the ASL lasts until the end of the opponents next turn so you charge a block of WoC and striking is in Initiative order, but in the opponents turn he will ASL. This will allow more Ogre attacks (2nd combat round) before we get carved into lil Ogre steaks.

Just to be clear and be 100% sure of this, we may also re-roll 1's on our impact hits correct?

Well it says to hit and to wound rolls so I'm not sure about Stomps though?

I found a thread discussing Dragonhide Banner
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=20832.0

According to the thread Impact hits are before rolling to hit so no re-rolling 1's for Impact hits? not sure if this is correct though.

All it says is all to hit, to wound and saves on a turn they charge. Nothing about timing. Yes you can reroll 1s on impact hits and stomps.

Just have any challengers answer the following questions;

Do you get impact hits/stomps on the turn you charge?
Do you roll to wound for impact hits/stomps?
Done.

Anyone that says otherwise, well, let's keep it PG around here shall we, but we know where they can go.

Do Impact Hits roll to wound? YES
Does the banner let you reroll To Wound on the turn you Charge? YES

The answer is already there.

NightMoor, I think a jinx is in order. Nice post.

All it says is all to hit, to wound and saves on a turn they charge. Nothing about timing. Yes you can reroll 1s on impact hits and stomps.

Just have any challengers answer the following questions;

Do you get impact hits/stomps on the turn you charge?
Do you roll to wound for impact hits/stomps?
Done.

Anyone that says otherwise, well, let's keep it PG around here shall we, but we know where they can go.

to H-E-Double hockey sticks?

I'm with Gralph here - while you don't NEED Ironguts, they solve a lot of problems the army could run into pretty handily, so you'd better be doing something awesome with all those points you're saving by bringing Ogres or Gnoblars instead. Given that you can already afford Maneaters, Leadbelchers, and Mournfangs with those Ironguts, I'd have to say that there are plenty of good reasons to bring IG's along.

Ironguts are necessary for me... Somebody has to fill the core, right? Gnoblars are so cheap I won't fill the core with them alone and Ogres (ex-Bulls) lost their armour piercing. Yep, they're cheaper and all, but they're still quite fragile. Ironguts can do some good damage with your characters and your special- and rare choices (mainly special) will do the "main damage".

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

IGs are hard for me to justify.  They are noticeably more expensive than bulls and not incredibly more expensive then MEs. 

Bulls are more survivable (same armor and they get a parry save) but hit a bit lighter.

MEs on the other hand are just as survivable and hit about the same (most opponents are T3 before buffs which means both are wounding on 2s).  And do not ASL with better WS and more attacks.  MEs are a better house for characters since they can be stubborn and ItP.  MEs can also take magic banners. 

The main reasons I'd field IGs over MEs is that I need to fill core, I want to run a monster hunting unit with flaming banner, or I'm stressed on special choices already.

The main reasons I'd field IGs over Bulls, I don't have enough hard hitting units in my list already and I need to fill my core.  I need access to a magic banner and my MEs and MF already have used theirs.

All that said they are not a BAD choice, they are more of a 3 star choice compared to Bulls and MEs which are a 4 star choice at filling the same role.

The better question is why would you ever take regular Ogres for core?

They are our cheapest competent fighting force.
They have the best armor save our of any of our units (except mournfangs).  As such have the best survivability.
Are adequately strong and durable.

I have to disagree strenuously with sitaavanu. Maneaters kitted out with the same equipment as IG's cost 1.5x the points IG's do (granted, they do make it worth your while, but still). Ogres hit A LOT lighter than IG's now, given that Ogre Clubs don't have Armor Piercing - S4 vs. S6 is just plain not comparable. To boot, you're only saving 25% or so points by switching to Bulls, and you're giving up +1 Ld and the option for a magic banner. It also frees you up to take units like Mournfangs and Leadbelchers as your Special choices, because you have the "heavy hitter" role covered - if you're bringing Ogres as your Core, you'd better be packing GW Maneaters and maybe a Thundertusk/Stonehorn, or you're going to have a tough time fighting tin cans or T4 troops.

While I can see arguments for regular Bulls, the IG's are clearly better in my mind.

Why not take both? They fill completely different roles on the battlefield and neither are terrible for their points. I take both every game.

I'm not comparing bulls to MEs.

I'm comparing bulls to IGs and MEs to IGs.

For cheap durable core Bulls are a superior choice as they are cheaper and have a parry save.

For cracking high toughness/armor MEs (not giving them GWs) give you STR 5 with more attacks and better weapon skill and do not have ASL for marginally more points.  The increased amount of attacks and chance to hit compensates for the 1 less strength.

Don't spend the extra points on IGs if Bulls will suffice.  If it really matters MEs will handle 90% of targets as well as IGs do.  Is my point, in no way am I advocating to take MEs instead of bulls.

Gnoblars are a better choice for core than Ogres. They have better uses for the points. Ironguts are str6, enough said. The parry save on the Ogres big whoop. My core choice for points has to have a use and Ogres are too expensive to soak up points for what they can do, which isn't much. Heck gnoblars can protect a flank better than Ogres because of the trapper option and you can get steadfast with ranks for cheap.

S5 alone doesn't get it done against the tin cans, you need to get at least -3 armor on there to make a dent against stuff like Brets and Chaos Knights. Ergo, you need those Great Weapons. Additionally, being able to wound T4 troops on 2+ or being able to at least wound T6 monsters on a 4+ is a nice bonus.

Personally, I'm looking at Maneaters with Great Weapons - not much stands up to S7 hits (they even have a shot of beating down a Sphinx!). If you bring those guys along, I can agree with the choice of Ogres over IG's (but for the Maw's sake, put your characters in that unit). Otherwise... not seeing it.

I believe that bulls, maneaters and ironguts all have their place in our lists.  In no way do the improvements to bulls invalidate ironguts as a choice.  Sometimes that S6 is just what you need when you need your maneaters elsewhere.  A maneater with a great weapon and heavy armour comes in at 22 points more than an irongut, so obviously if you need a can-opener then the guts are probably a better investment.

I generally agree with sitaavanu's assessment of their capabilities, but certainly won't be shelving all ironguts as useless

I run 2 units of Ogres and a unit of Ironguts. Ogres kill things just fine, but I like having at least one answer to the tin cans you sometimes run into or To6.