High Elves + Thundertusk

Keeping with the theme of asking rules questions based on our new army book:

How would High Elves (ASF) and the Thundertusk (ASL) interact? According to the High Elves FAQ, Sword Masters with their Great Weapons keep their ASF, but only because the army book takes precedence, so I would say it is not applicable in this situation... Am I missing something?

There's a huge arguement about this on TWF, so I won't go into it too much here. Suffice to say it wil depend entirely on the wording of the Thundertusk's special rule.

However, if you're asking for an opinion, then I think they should strike in initiative order. They can ignore the ASL from their GWs thanks to their rule, but the Thundertusk's application of it could not be ignored. As I say, this is just my feeling on the matter and not fact.

Then we will just have to wait and see (and hope GW has actually thought about it as well )

I think they revert to their Inititive because Speed of Asurmen only allows them to ignore ASL from any weapons they are wielding.

the Thundertusk gives them ASL independently of weapons.


This basically denys them their pesky reroll.

Honestly, assuming that it's worded as "All enemy units within 6" have the Always Strike Last" rule, then that's exactly how my group play it.

Look at it this way:
Speed Of Asuryan is an internal effect. That is to say, it's native to the army.
The Thundertusk's frost aura is an external effect. That is, one which it enforces onto something regardless of any other rules.

It's like how Bretonnian bowmens spike thingies take away things charge bonuses. The specific effect (frost aura) should always trump a general one (Speed of Asuryan).

In my opinion, with Thundertusk's special rule, White Lions would have ASL two times (once per 2 hand weapon and second time per Thundertusk). The rulebook says ASF eliminates ASL and they attack by their own I.
But, if the Thundertusk eliminates Speed of Asuryan, that would mean that White Lions would have ASL. Am I wrong?

P.S: Forgive my English, I'm not very good xD

I belive that would be true.

1st ASL is canceled by Speed,

2nd ASL sticks.


so Swordmasters and White Lions get boned. everyone else just loses their reroll.

Multiple applications of ASL/ASF don't stack with eachother.  Under SoA, the GW troops ignore their weapon induced ASL.  When near the thundertusk, they are affected with a nonweapon based ASL source.  The ASL and ASF counteract and cause all HEs to strike in initiative order, regardless of what they are swinging.

Quote "An Enemy model within 6"  of a Thundertusk has the Always Strikes Last special rule"

So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter? 

Multiple applications of ASL/ASF don't stack with eachother.  Under SoA, the GW troops ignore their weapon induced ASL.  When near the thundertusk, they are affected with a nonweapon based ASL source.  The ASL and ASF counteract and cause all HEs to strike in initiative order, regardless of what they are swinging. 

And there's the arguement. Can you get multiple 'stacks' of ASL? Or is it a blanket rule that if you have once, you cannot get again?

As I said, if you want to debate the details of the rules, down to the spelling and meaning of every word, then I advise TWF. If, like me, you're fed up with that sort of fight, let's agree it's murky until we see the book or an FAQ.

So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter? 

No rerolls to hit us

So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter? 

No rerolls to hit us

Touche sir! I forget about that extra annoyance in the rule. I withdraw my statement from the record

Well i remember reading some where that they cancel each other out and then you have to go with "I" for each model

It was on a faq  for an other army asking for the High Elves (ASF)  but we have to wait and see hehe

Yeah, thats what you do.

the problem with this situation is HEs with Great Weapons. do they go to striking in I order, or do they actually strike last.

They ignore the ASL of their weapons. This means they have ASF. The granted ASL and ASF cancel each other so they strike on their Initiative. That means they are still striking before us, but I have to tell you that when they are hitting me 2/3rds of the time already, I would be very happy to get rid of the re-rolling misses part. 18 swing at me and 12 hit then 4 re-roll and hit so really only 2 miss. That is painful. 12 hits with 2+-3+ to wound is plenty already.

It is tempting to say that the granted ASL cancels out ASF from Speed of Asuryan and then any Great Weapon armed elves then get affected by ASL of their weapons and actually strike last... but I don't think it works like that. The elves simply have ASF and ASL special rules and therefore strike in initiative order with no rerolls no matter what weapon they are carrying.

That is how I would play it also. Re-rolls to hit will be nice enough to remove. I know when I play my O&G and get re-rolls with magic my unit just chews through the enemy.

It matters not, everyone else goes LAST. frakkin last I tell you.
 
 

Agreed.  It is still going to be awesome going before every other army out there!

Agreed.  It is still going to be awesome going before every other army out there!

Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

You are so sigged

I'm just sooo happy H-elves Sword masters won't get rerolls against me anymore 

They can swing before me (got lots of bodies), but I will like it when they atleast miss a few.

Actually there has been some discussion that the Thundertusk will NOT be taking "Speed of Asuryan" away from the H-elves.

From my understanding of the argument the SoA is a separate rule from ASF entirely and ASL only cancels out ASF - not SoA. So the argument is saying that the H-elves will still strike first no matter what, and still get their re-rolls.

I hope they will write a FAQ on this to clarify because its very confusing. If I can get some links later I will.

Do we have any HE around here (besides hanging in the pantry) that could give us the exact wording out of their book. Cause I believe SoA gives them ASF with any weapon. If that is so ASL from the thundertusk will negate their re-rolls.

Just pulled this off the HE site. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.”

So, SoA GIVES THEM THE ASF special rule. So seems pretty clear cut to me. They get ASF with any weapon. Thundertusk gives them ASL. They strike at Int....seems pretty simple to me. Would like to see the arguament to the counter....

I think the argument is that SoA gives them the special rule, but also "cloaks" it in the process. Meaning that according to the BRB in the strictest possible way, the rule ASL counters ASF and vice versa, not a rule that grants either. See the obscure technicality now?

Basically what it boils down to is, the High Elf players are trying to knit-pick a rule technicality to death to counter an answer we were given to help us against their cheese. Its obviously a bogus argument, but that isn't going to stop a bunch of whiny elves from moaning and complaining about it, ya know? 

Speed of Asurman says "HEs have the ASF special rule. however, any HE that has ASF from any weapon he is wielding ignores the ASL and retains ASF"


It only ignores the ASL from Great Weapons. regular ASL will still be applied.

Well Bro. I see what you wrote but don't see any "technicalities" that are arguable??? They have ASF...we give them ASL. They both cancel out and they strike at their Int.

And I just read GT's statement. If that's the arguament that they are putting forward then they are reaching for straws.....

Let them Whine all they want.

SoA is clearly ASF. Thundertusk gives ASL. they cancel out, end of discussion. We thump you now

Speed of Asurman says "HEs have the ASF special rule. however, any HE that has ASF from any weapon he is wielding ignores the ASL and retains ASF"


It only ignores the ASL from Great Weapons. regular ASL will still be applied.

Did you mean "has ASL from any weapon he is wielding" ...? Otherwise thats really confusing...


I still see your point though. I wonder why they are still arguing the point? That seems as clear cut as it gets... ???


@kobahl

Oh Im not arguing on their behalf, I think they are full of Rhinox-dung. Im just telling everyone what I have heard being argued.

yeah, I meant ASL

I think the argument is that SoA gives them the special rule, but also "cloaks" it in the process. Meaning that according to the BRB in the strictest possible way, the rule ASL counters ASF and vice versa, not a rule that grants either. See the obscure technicality now?

Basically what it boils down to is, the High Elf players are trying to knit-pick a rule technicality to death to counter an answer we were given to help us against their cheese. Its obviously a bogus argument, but that isn't going to stop a bunch of whiny elves from moaning and complaining about it, ya know? 

Well, if that's their arguement you're fine. The TT doesn't give them ASF, it has a special rule with a different name that has teh same affect as giving them ASL.

We can play that game too...

We can play that game too...

I love your style Sandals!

I will redirect all future elven gripers to this thread and let them read this and weep

SoA gives HE ASF, regardless of what weapon they are wielding.

If you give them ASL they revert to initiative (per the BRB), however, SoA does prevent the Swordmasters and White Lions from striking last.

Any HEplayer arguing that they still get their reroll's however, is just daft.

SoA gives HE ASF, regardless of what weapon they are wielding.

If you give them ASL they revert to initiative (per the BRB), however, SoA does prevent the Swordmasters and White Lions from striking last.

Any HEplayer arguing that they still get their reroll's however, is just daft.

STAND AND DELIVER! So that my hamster may have a better look at you...

Well said Minsc!

Not sure the correct ruling on the ASL but worse case scenario is HE's lose their re-rolls, which is great for us with our poor match up vs, HE's in general.

I agree with the thoughts on HE's with GW's striking last and this would include Characters with GW's, Lion Chariot Crews, WL's and SM's.

There was a debate on this on TWF when the arachnarock came out, since it's flinger weapon inflicts ASL on a unit hit.  There was some debate that the SoA version of ASF merely cancelled the effects of GW ASL and not ASL from any other source, forcing the HE to strike last if weilding GWs.

However, IIRC, general consensus was that that HE strike on their own initiative when ASF and ASL from a source other than a weapon they are holding coincide.

Either way, I'm a happy ogre.  Without the re-rolls, HE are fairly puny.

Pretty much the logical consensus around here too. That's the the rules state it too. I really don't see how people get this wrong. SoA gives HE ASF with anything they wield. Simple. Now give them ASL and they strike at initiative. Simple....

Argument I've now run into is the fact that the BRB apparently states that multiple instances of the same rule (in this case ASL) do not stack, therefore while spearelves are striking at Initiative with no re-rolls, as swordmasters and white lions already have ASL (which is ignored but not REMOVED by the SoA faq) they still get to have ASF and re-rolls.

Thoughts on this rules lawyering bs?

Argument I've now run into is the fact that the BRB apparently states that multiple instances of the same rule (in this case ASL) do not stack, therefore while spearelves are striking at Initiative with no re-rolls, as swordmasters and white lions already have ASL (which is ignored but not REMOVED by the SoA faq) they still get to have ASF and re-rolls.

Thoughts on this rules lawyering bs?

If they're trying to pull out that kind of argument, they aren't worth the dirt from a Gnoblar's ear. Just ask them one question:
Do you really believe that?

If they say no, they are obviously a wargamer who just wants to win, and don't care about legality. Walk away from the game.

If they say yes, they are either:
a) new to the game, so you should offer to help them with their army and tactics (and attempt not to sound patronising);
b) lying, so treat it like they have said no;
c) insane, so you probably shouldn't play with them.

A simple guide.

I'm of the opinion that HE: SM's, WL's, heroes with GW's and Lion Chariot Crew would all strike last.

Other High Elves would strike in initiative order with no re-rolls.

Note: thundertusk only affects models within 6", not units within 6".  This massively limits it's effectiveness.

Yeah, its one reason to actually have it in the combat. that way it should actually effect the whole combat rather then only part.

Have it charge the edge so its in contact with as few models as possable(it takes less damage in return, but it still gets its full attacks.

"If you can maneuver it so all your units charge in support of each other, there is not much that can stand before such an onslaught. There is something about Ogres getting To Hit before even high Initiative models like Elves or Skaven that delights me no matter how many times I do it."

This is from the GW entry from the website, under the thundertusk.  Which led me to believe even high elves strike last, but it could be just talking about elves in general.  I think we ogres need faqs already.

"If you can maneuver it so all your units charge in support of each other, there is not much that can stand before such an onslaught. There is something about Ogres getting To Hit before even high Initiative models like Elves or Skaven that delights me no matter how many times I do it."

This is from the GW entry from the website, under the thundertusk.  Which led me to believe even high elves strike last, but it could be just talking about elves in general.  I think we ogres need faqs already.

Never trust anything coming from a GW "entry" "fluff" or battlereport. They get things wrong way to many times. ASF + ASL= strike at int.  They will still strike before our fat boys.......no faq needed.

Not all Elves are High...

Some are sober.

Not all Elves are High...

Some are sober.

LOL

Never trust anything coming from a GW "entry" "fluff" or battlereport. They get things wrong way to many times. ASF + ASL= strike at int.  They will still strike before our fat boys.......no faq needed.

Your response does seem most reasonable and true.

You will notice the GW article didn't say High Elves, it just said Elves.

So they were most certaintly referring to Dark and Wood Elves, not High Elves. They just saved a little space by not adding 3 little words.