Character and Command Locations

I have a 3-wide FC bulls unit, with 3 mawseeker bruisers on the second rank.  I choose to make way to put my T6 bruisers up front.  Do they make way at the beginning of combat?  Or do they make way in initiative order to swing at the enemy?  So, if I am facing ASF high elves, can they swing on my bulls, or do I get to make way first and make the puny high elves try to get through T6?

Make Way is at the start of combat, even before ASF and Impact Hits. So your Bruisers not only take the brunt of the High Elf assault, but your Bull Charge is now Str 7 instead of 6...

I want my Butchers in the 2nd rank for our spells that need LoS.


the edge of the unit is a bad place because of Flank charges(easy to get on our fat ogres)


Butchers arn't any worse then a regular bull at fighting(aside from not having a Club, but thats what cheapo magic weapons are for. Biting Blade is good(basically a magic club)

And since the characters trade places with the units FC, the unit stays in this position for the remainder of combat right? Meaning if I use Somefatkid's example and I had a butcher in the 3rd rank, once the make way happens the butcher stays in the 3rd rank until after combat is over.

I like the idea of a butcher in the middle of the 3rd rank. He can't be hit by flank attacks.

The fact you just said "if I use Somefatkid's example" is outstanding to me. 

I would have to ask if you want the Butcher not on the front row though. I mean, if its Ironguts, ok I can see that because they have some armor and stuff...but Bulls are only T4, would you not want the Butcher on the front to finish out the T5 meat shield? One Toothcracker means you got nothing but 6s lining that front rank...seems pretty strong!!!! 

Augments don't need LoS. However, Bonecruncher and Braingobbler do, and those two are very handy spells. You also would not have LoS from the edge of the unit. Only the front rank of a unit draws LoS. The models in the second rank can use the LoS of the model in front of them.

So I tried this out in two games today. 

1st game was 1000 points against Demons.  Tyrant and butcher moved up to the front rank with the champion in a unit of four iron guts against 15 or so Demonettes of Slannesh who charged us.  Crusher issued a challenge against the Herald.  Each did two wounds to the other (his died).  The rest of his unit only had the two characters, with +1 T, to attack.  He had fewer models attacking as the champion negates a few models in the supporting area.  They did 0 wounds.  The characters and three supporting great weapons destroyed his unit.

2nd game was 1500 points against Dark Elves.  Tyrant, BSB, Butcher did they same vs Corsairs.  Problem was they had Okam's Mindrazor up and frenzy.  All but the Butcher died.

I havent been able to play against the DEs yet under the new edition - what is the Okham's Mindrazor and frenzy deal about exactly?

Okham's Minrazor lets them use their Ld value for their strength.  So they were strength 8!

Frenzy allows them to re-roll misses.

Plus our WS, BS, I, and, Ld were all two lower with another of his spells.

It was not good.

Wow...thats completely ridiculous. 

Elves should NEVER be that strong...for any reason. I guess you would just have to focus on getting ward and regen saves at that point no matter what...right?

He kept me from getting regeneration cast with his level 4 and level 2 sorceresses.  I had +2 T stacked and he knocked one of them down so he was still wounding on 2's.

All three characters had ward saves.  Tyrant and BSB both had 4+ and Butcher had 5+.

Like I said it was nasty.

I should have just let the IG get creamed and had all the characters fight back from the 2nd rank.  It might have made a difference.

I will reiterate my previous point...elves should NEVER be that powerful...ever ever ever ever ever for ANY reason...

Well he was throwing 5-6 dice to put up Okham's Minrazor and did get IF.

The problem with Dark Elves and Mindrazor is that it's just too easy. Their units can kick out so many attacks, either through natural abilities (Witch Elves) Magic Banners (Corsairs) or the Cauldren (Any, usually Black Guard) that combining it with minimum Ld 8 and the ability to throw 10 dice at a spell it just makes the game dull.

You really can't pick on any unit, as you HAVE to break it when you charge. If they get the charge, or they stick around, they can delete units sooo quickly.

Anyway, on topic...

Who are you guys issuing Challenges with? Generally you want the Tyrant spanking the unit, unless he is hefting the BigT, so do you step up with the BSB or the SM? Or do you have a champ to protect your characters from this situation?

I have started bringing a champion.  It allows him to take/issue the challenge so my tyrant and bruiser can attack the unit.

If I issue a challenge, its with the Tyrant and he turns someone into meat-paste. If they are issuing challenges, I know something is up because NO ONE, unless they are mounted or something, issues a challenge to an ogre unit sporting a frontage of characters - especially if one of said characters is the Tyrant. Typically, if it is an army that can really do some CK, I will make sure my trusty gnoblar unit goes to battle with me and I let them issue the challenge and accept it with my Groinbiter and let them deal with him while my characters are racking up CR by smashing RnFs.