Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Chaos

Summary from the old forum:

- Zuggut the FAT


- The Flying Beaver


- ikim


- Wah


- ze1337


- rampagingpenguins


- Shawn Michaels


- Lexy of the Ogrelix tribe


- loghead1121


- ghorok_the_mighty

I would like to request a separate thread on fighting SoC Demonic Legions armies.  They are unique enough I think they require special attention.  +1 Ld to all demons and 5+ WARD save for the whole army?  At no additional cost?  Plus the ability to give an entire unit a 4+ ward save.  And the ability to take skirmishing units of flamers?  Etc.  Sheesh

Chaos armies usually are filled with fodder, but have 1 or 2 really nasty troops.

One thing a chaos general will use against you is thier magic. Best thing in this scenario is to get to the head honcho's first and worry about the rest later.

One unit of bulls, with a bull charge, can probably take him/her/it down within 1 or 2 turns depending on how the dice roll.

The rest of thier units can be whooped pretty easily after that.

Try this if he only has one unit of Chaos Warriors:

Ignore it.

They are VERY expensive for such a slow unit. And with your superior movement you can probably avoid them.

Try to avoid taking gnoblars against a Tzeentch army. There is a Tzeentch spell, that can be cast within 18". Every model in the unit must take a strength 2 hit. All models killed are turned into horrors, counting as charging the front. I once lost 17 of my 25 gnoblar unit in one round! That's many horrors! 17! They are 14pts each...

I'd have to agree, gnoblars are a liability against chaos.  They arent appealing targets, and just get killed too quickly.

Hmm alright, so I have a question: What would you do with a 2000 point Ogre army who has to fight against a Tzeench demon army with Shaggoth? Also, the player has something like 14 casting dice and the Staff of Change.

I need help...

Okay, so it was a total disaster.  He took a slaneesh lord on a chaos dragon, a shaggoth champion (another lord), two units of chaos knights, two chariots, a chaos giant, a unit of 3 minotaurs. and a spawn.  Everything had the mark of slaneesh.

He came hard and I hesitated.  He chose the combats that ensued and I got swept off the board, mostly because my general whiffed in a challenge with the shaggoth (I had the required necklace and tenderizer) and fled due to terror.  (sigh)

For such a force, I needed demon killing scars (or beastkiller big name), more maneaters, and leadbelchers to keep the flyer honest.

It was over by turn 3.  Ouch.

What to do with a Tzeentch Daemon army with a Shaggoth? Tell him you're not going to play him because he's a cheater. You can't have a Shaggoth in an army lead by a Daemon, it's one of their rules as they belive they will lose their immortality.

Grog, i think you've been mislead. a slaneesh lord on a dragon does NOT count as a daemonic general, or so i beleive. that is the extent of my knowledge for tonite

ghorok

I know that!!! Check post number 6.

I'm a new one to the ogres, and I love them so very much!

I'm playing a warband campaignwith some pals, one's playing chaos, and I've allied with the night goblin player, because I whiped him entirely off the board...

Anyway. So far, the chaos player is destroying everyone else, and I'm about to start coming into contact with him. he -only- runs a prettybig unit of knights and a BIG unit of warriors

I know I should double or triple team the knights, but, damn...it's hard to get him to hit my gnoblars so I can flank him...any hints and suggestions?

I have a unit of 4 bulls w/ ironfists w/ bellower, 1 leadbelcher, 1 butcher w/ the Brahmir statue , 1 maneater as my commander, armed with handguns, and 1 unit of 16 gnoblars.

As a former Wood Elf player, I have a suggestion that I haven't seen in this thread for taking out single ranks of Chaos Knights.

Gnoblars. 

Pair them with a unit of 3 Ironguts with a carefully planned gap between them.  Present both units to the knights, and prepare to flee with one.  With the gap done right, you will leave the flank of the knights exposed to a counter charge from the remaining unit. 

Now most people expect the gnoblars to be used as bait.  So clever (or perhaps, no so clever) generals will charge the IG.  You get the gnoblars in the flank on just a single knight.  Before combat begins, you have 3 ranks, outnumber and flank.  Lets say our valient but inept gnoblars do no wounds (who would have thunk it?).  The chosen chaos knight has two attacks back and an attack from his mount.  If they all wound, and his knights have a standard, the knights still loose combat by 1.  On average though, he's doing 2 wounds (1.5+ I think), losing by 2, making his LD a 6.   And just consider when the miraculous happens and the gnoblars actually drag one of those buggers down!


Now granted, there are exceptions to this.  If there is a character on the flank...Khornate Knights are a tad riskier, but the matchup is still in the gnoblar's favor unless the Khornate Knight hits and wounds with every attack.  But in general, a large gnoblar unit in the flank will beat Chaos Knights every time.

...and if they go after the gnoblars instead, they get the three guts in the flank who are going to kill 2 knights on average, probably outnumber and have a flank vs a standard, and win by 3.

James.

Nice idea, but why would he fall into the trap.
If he just stays there waiting, he has two units of you ( and a real big part of the battlefield) covered.
If he has to charge, well, then he is khorne and has the 2 (one from the horse ) extra attacks.

That's the name of the game, right?  Getting the opponent to fall into your trap?  Using the gnoblars against the knights in the flank is the tactical part, getting the knights to choose to enter combat with them is the strategic part.  It's no different than getting your Tyrant w/ Tenderizer into combat w/ hero's and monsters.  He is the tool that can destroy the enemy, it's up to your generalship to get him where he needs to be to do that.

Perhaps you have a bigger threat comming (i.e. Hunter with harpoon or longstriding hero with greatweapon lining up on the flank).  Perhaps you're limiting thier potential.  For instance, it's not gnoblars and IG but two units of gnoblars have the knights lined up -- now you've spent 60 points of 'worthless' troops to tie up some 200 points of his elite.  He can avoid the trap if he likes, but if so, you've effectively eliminated them anyway.

How you get them into play doesn't change the fact that you've got a tool that will beat him every time if you can use it correctly. 

And Khornate Knights only get the one extra attack for frenzy.  The horse doesn't get frenzied.

James.

Well no.

Horses do get an extra attack too ( riders psychology is taken over by the mount)

You started with the idea of gnoblars and ironguts.
And that Idea will probalby not work.

Per page 47 of the Hordes of Chaos book, specifically 'Regiments of Khorne' ridden creatures do not get an additional Attack if thier riders are frenzied.  Also, Per page 52 of the new 7th edition BRB Frenzied models fight with an extra attack...  A Chaos knight is a single model, horse and knight together.  They get 1 extra attack.

And I started with this:


A unit of outnumbering gnoblars in the flank will beat a unit of single ranked chaos knights every time (save the exception where the knights are khornate and they hit with every hit and wound with every wound) which was the whole point.  The IG are just one suggestion to get the gnoblars to the flank.  Maybe you're right and that particular way "probably won't work".  That would depend upon your opponent and battlefield conditions.  Still there are tons of other ways to get them there.

As I said before, the gnoblars are a tool, but just like every other tool in your army, it is a matter of your generalship how well you use them.

James.

Yes, but the new rulebook  overrides the old armybook, and there it says that the mount takes over the psychology ( including frenzy as it is mentioned ) from the rider


James, you are right that this might work.
My problem with gnoblars is that they are so much slower then ogres and will be too late for every charge they want to make.
And if you let your ogres go as slow as the gnoblars, the chaos player will dictate your movement instead of you dictating him.

In a 2000 pt. I would use 2 Slave Giants and have them accompany (not to be confused with joining them, for that is illegal) a unit of 4 Yhetees. Have the S.giants charge the first big unit and let the Yhetees flank em. And if you are as lucky as I have been with S.giants they will yell and ball and your opponet will roll awful and flee then they will be good for the charge the next round (if you do not catch their flee distance and destroy them).
B'ong

WHAT?! I have never heard of these people before. How in the heck do they pull that off and what are we supposed to do about it? Doesn't a ward save fend off even the Yhetee attacks?

They are about to be banned from all tournies as SoC is over this year   They were from that campaign and were used to spice up the moderately good demonic lists from the HoC book.  Basically they were there to sell all those nice new demonic boxes they put out

It ticks me off when a company compromises the balance of the game just to make a buck. But they are businesses I guess...but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Damn capitalism.

Actually they are banned from UKGT tournaments.
For example: the Dutch GT doesn't allow rinox riders, but the fanatic tournaments do.
That might also be true for SOC armies.

About the 2 attacks for Khorne knights, James (Gussie) was right, it is in the FAQ.
This only counts for chaos knights of khorne, savage boar boyz do have two attacks for their boars

Well, from what I read in the posts, I think this is what I would try to field against the Chaos:

Tyrant
Big T, DK Scars, Talisman of Protection, HA, Luck Gnobo, Handguns
323

Butcher
Brahmir, Laurels (for that one Crit break test)
180

Butcher
Bangstick, Cookbook
180

Hunter w/ 2 Sabres
Greyback Pelt, Mawseeker (T6!)
230

Scrappie 165

LBs (2 x 4) (average: 20 hits)
Bellower each
460

IGs (3 x 3)
Bellower each
362

Trappers (1 x 8 )
48

Gnobo Fighters (1 x 26) (aka Speed Bump)
52

Army: 2k

As I have said, I have limited experience, but I think this is what I would try. The IGs, Tyrant, Hunter and Gnobos would comprise the center, with the LBs on the Flanks. We dont want to engage Chaos in H2H, so we distract them with Gnobs and Tusks; while the Tyrant, the Bangstick Butcher (that's a cool name), LBs, Scrappie and Hunter shoot every chance. Once the center unit of Gnobs engage, and the Flank is clear or weakened from firepower, charge the IGs, Sabres, and Tyrant in. If ya cant H2H'em, shoot'em.

I would just like to post to tell everyone that a 7th edition errata has been released, which clarifies the issue of Khorne Knights and extra mount attacks.  The army book still takes precedence, and the mounts do NOT get an extra attack.  It may not seem like a big deal, but if you think about it, 5 WS3 S4 attacks is the same as a charging saurus unit...  a big advantage is now lost to the chaos!  hail maw!

Nice 

Except for the fact, that saurus warriors have two attacks (beak)

I must say, that 26 attacks for a unit chosen knights way over the top is (5 chosen khorne knights with champ)
But the horses aren't the biggest problem for an opponent, I guess.

Nice 

I would just like to post to tell everyone that a 7th edition errata has been released, which clarifies the issue of Khorne Knights and extra mount attacks.  The army book still takes precedence, and the mounts do NOT get an extra attack.  It may not seem like a big deal, but if you think about it, 5 WS3 S4 attacks is the same as a charging saurus unit...  a big advantage is now lost to the chaos!  hail maw!

Except for the fact, that saurus warriors have two attacks (beak)

I must say, that 26 attacks for a unit chosen knights way over the top is (5 chosen khorne knights with champ)
But the horses aren't the biggest problem for an opponent, I guess.

watch out for the Helm Of Many Eyes GW wielding exalted in a unit of mauraders, he willl cause a large amount of dammage if if you charge him, he always strikes first at S7 and WS7 with 4 attacks

Obviusly try to avoid the huge hammers, Dragon Ogres, Minos, Knights, And take out support units like chariots and furies before getting stuck in

Maneaters w/ GW are very useful here as they can crunch armour on most units and have a Higher WS

Knight heavy Chaos armies are easy enough to outmaneuver with an MSU ogre army, just pick your charges carefully, get the charge, get the flanks, and watch a lot of very expensive models run for the hills.

As long as you make sure that your units are always operating in pairs or triads you should have no problems at all.

Most of chaos armies are composed of really expensive units that aren't fast, or ridiculously expensive units that are fast. Use gnoblars as speed bumps and don't worry about overrunning or giving the enemy that extra pursuit move- chaos armies have very few units and a staggered chaos line only helps you get those flank charges in.

what i would like to know is what do you do versus tzeentch marked army?

what i would like to know is what do you do versus tzeentch marked army?

Take a tenderizer to the characters . A tZeentch marked army will have relatively few units as they'll be lookiing primarily at chariots, knights, warriors, minos and bestigors to get those +1 power dice. Their characters also become ludicrously expensive, and you'll often find players tooling them up to be better mages still, but neglecting to kgive them any of the super killy death equipment that regular chaos characters get. By knocking out the characters (either head on with things like the tenderizer, at range with bonecruncher, or up close by breaking the unit he's in as chaos characters, like our own, have painfully low Ld) you'll not only make a lot of the units less useful (no longer dice batteries) you'll be taking out a huge chunk of his points

Thanks
Corai

Ogres, beware of Slaanesh mortal armies.  After a 3k game tonight against Chaos Mortals (mostly undivided) with some Slaanesh knights and a Khorne chariot thrown in there I learned some pointers.   One unit of chosen Slaanesh knights w/ an exalted champion attached the Raptuous banner killed off about 1100 pts of ogres (panic had a big part to do with it)  Only repeated bonecrushers killed off this unit.  The Exalted still held out by himself against a unit of 3 guts and a unit of 3 bulls in the flank for 3 rounds of combat.  I thought I had this unit when I got a slavegiant into it's flank, jumped up and down for 9 hits, rolled 5, yes 5 one's and he made the other 4 armor saves.  Lost combat, got over-ran and they got a 15" overrun into a unit of Yhettes who were cut to pieces.

Slaanesh is the cheapest mark of the 4 gods, by far.  The only downside is they can't flee from a charge, but why should they?  They are immune to psych, so no panic/fear/terror testing... and even a normal group of chaos warrios has a 3+ save in hth.

One unit of Knights or Warrios can take the 50pt banner that gives the unit Sporofic Musk.  (1/2's  your weapon skill and Initiative by being in contact with the UNIT, not the standard bearer.)  So, they are sometimes willing to take that flank charge by Ironguts, since you hit on 5's, wound on 2's, and they save on 6's.

Slaanesh also has the best magic lore of the chaos powers.   In 3k games and above Hellheart is a must.

Look out for Exalted Daemons / Daemon Princes as well, just by having the mark of Slaanesh they stike first, are usually kitted out with Sporofic Musk (see above) and soul hunger (re-roll misses 1st round of combat).  The good thing is, the only unit that they can join are Daemonettes, so they can be picked out for spells/shooting.  Only a Tyrant or Tenderiser equipped Bruiser should take on one of these dudes.. and even then it's iffy. 

I highly reccomend Maneaters against chaos of any type.  The higher str, attacks meant I was actually killing chaos warriors on the charge.  Bulls will just bounce off normal warriors, and even a unit of 4 ironguts isn't a guarantee.  I used a unit of 3, all w/ Cathayan LS's, so the warriors needed 4's to hit, 4's to wound.  Chaos Warriors aren't used to hitting rank/file troops on 4's......  I also kept them away from that unit of Knights w/ sporofic musk for obvious reasons.

watch out particularly for the fact their hammer untis are immune to panic. This means they can run cahso hounds/marauder horsemen directly in front as screens and charge bait without worrying about fleeing back through the knights and warriors.

Thanks
Corai

my friend has a very fast chaos army any tips?

Exalted champion (1)         120
Halberd
Chaos steed

Chosen Chaos Knights (4)         220
Champion
Banner

Chaos Knights(4)            172
Champion
Banner

Marauder horsemen (5)          75
Flails

Warhounds (5)            30

Screamer of tzeench (10)                       330

Flesh hounds of khorne              80

Total                 1027 points

they way to kill off chaos units is by flanking and hopeing that they dont kill too much to make up the cr.
i used to play slaanehi chaos and my hammer (16 chosen warriors of slaanesh + exalted champoin of slaanesh with whip of pleasure + either war banner or rapturos standard) this unit usally took out whole armies if succesful. the rest of the army was chariots. ( yes it was very cheesey)

the only army i sucked against was gunlines.

now the only way people beat the hammer was to avvoide it until all my support unit had been taken out or flank charge it.

Most of your characters should have S7+, and your ironguts can get it with the bullgorger spell, so you should ahve plenty of S7 attacks. And if there aren't any chariots S7 pops open those hard as nails knights and warriors.

The problem for ogres is knights, and it doesn't actually matter which.
They can have 3 or for hammer units and they are faster ( trust me, I use this)

A friend of mine always plays Chaos Mortals Undivided, and takes a very fast army.  He takes a Chaos lord on horseback with a bunch of knights undivided, 3 units of knights with the mark of khorne, a bunch of warhounds, usually 2 small units of marauder horsemen, screamers, and I find him way difficult to beat.    He also sometimes takes the Steed-o-shadows Great-weapon Exalted champion of Khorne (cast by a bray shaman) to disrupt me when I need it least.  His superior maneuverability, attack power, defenses, and magic defense really get me down. 
  Of course the ol' bait/switch technique is key, because the khorne knights have to charge, but this isn't always possible, especially since we usually play with a lot of terrain over the battlefield, and his screamers/screens usually protect from that.  Someone suggested Maneaters before, but I find them useless against this setup because ItP prevents them from fleeing, and gets them killed before they can even attack back. 
  What I have found to be oddly successful is a single bruiser (or maybe a Tyrant, if you're feeling fancy) without a unit.  This way, you can issue challenges when charged by units without characters, and win combats.  No RnF to beat down upon for the knights!  Even if he has nothing to challenge, only 3 knights cannot take down a bruiser with GW, even with their mark of Khorne.  And when it comes time for the Bruiser to strike back, you should kill at least 1 or two.  I ran 3 bruisers and a Tyrant in 2,000 points (I usually never take those guys) and won.  I think next time I'll do the same, and maybe I'll keep them all running around independently.  How's that for MSU!  Bullgut would be useful here.

bullgut would be extremely useful vs. those knights. having the strength bonus on a unit of charging ironguts can really turn cav into chumps.

since they are khorne, like u said, abuse their frenzy. trappers can work well here, baiting them into charging into forests. that is always great. since they will be out of the game for like 2 turns easily. yhetees can do this really well since they can get into the forests easily. and flee back without harm.

leadbelchers can hurt screens. trappers and yhetees can do march blocking.

are rhinox riders possible for you? bull rhinox riders can crush through screens and slam into knights behind. just make sure ull get impact hits on both if possible.

warbanners help alot in both IG and BRR cases. in either case, my best suggestion is having trappers or yhetees try to abuse frenzy and run a few knight groups off, then do group charges on units, totally overwhelming them, and hoping for a solid 3-4 bonus in combat res. trollguts on ur unit can really help. tyrant with tenderiser also works well too. best of luck

I need some help guys, I'm going to an event at my local game store, and the big name there runs an all Daemon Horde list... its a 2150 point game, and I have really no idea what he's throwing but rumor is a Tzeench/nurgle army... point being: whats the best way to go at an all daemon army?

I have played chaos the most out of all my games with my ogres and I think gut magic has been one of the most helpful things against them, unless they are playing a heavy magic tzeentch army or something with an amazing amount of dispel dice. I have had bonecruncher kill 3 choosen knights in one casting. Also, braingobler is very helpful against those pesky beastmen herd lines spread in front of their army. Put a skullmantle on your butcher and see them run.

Scraplauncher is also helpful verse large blocks of marauders. Since you dont have to fear much s7 weapons or cannon shots, it is pretty easy to keep it alive. Also do not underestimate the killing blow of it. I have also had it kill 4-6 warriors a couple of times on a large block of choosen warriors.  Hell in my last game I just had my scraplauncher scatter over a lone high elf lord level mage and I rolled a 6 and insta-killed it.

Always turn khornes frenzy advantage into a disadvantage. Bait with your msu bulls and flee only to flank charge with your iron guts.

I always find maneaters a must against chaos. They are one of the only units to live against a charge from knights and kill them with their attacks back. Easier said when they are not choosen. I have no problem throwing my maneaters in front of knights to take the charge especially if my maneaters have troll or tooth on them. 
Sure they might kill one and a half maneaters but 8 s7 attacks back can mean 3 dead knights. If they are choosen then it is best not to use this tactic.

For daemons, I find the bangstick very helpful for taking out furries or screamers.

also, yhetees really excel against demons. No ranged attacks from demons and the ice weapon attacks are magical, so no 5+ ward save. Since they will always need to attack in close combat, they will always be working with -1 to the attack roll from the frost aura.

I have only looked at this thread just now and noticed the lack of reference to daemonic armies, true gut magic and yhetees work best against most daemon armies but tzeentch can counter both tactics very well, just use flamers on the yhetees to get rid of magical weapons and they will have enough magical defence to slow your gut magic down significantly, tzeentch also has alot of ranged firepower, but if you can get into combat you are laughing hitting on 3s.

i recently played a 3000pt game against a generic (by generic i mean lots of ogres and a couple of gnoblar units the kind o like you would see in WD) ogre army with an all mino BoC list led by 2 doombulls and if i may say so, as a chaos player, minos beat ogres (even IG) in a straight fight hands down.

as a piece of advice when you face armies like this, monster heavy (kroxigor, chaos ogres, minotaurs, ushabti etc) manuveurability and bull charge are your friends....

my opponent didnt realise this till about turn 4, but its a lesson i doubt he'll soon forget.

learn well fellow ogres

syc.

Yesterday I really got pwned by an all cavalry tzeentch heavy magic chaos list. Didn't really knwo hwo to approach him. The 1 movement above ogre movement really is a pain and his magics made my gaming a nightmare.

All those countercharges from chariots... and chosen chaosknights are NOT easy to beat.

against cavalry armies like that, the only really viable approach is the bait and flee - and it'll get expensive - but if you can flank chaos knights then even bulls can find the fun

You could load up on scrap launchers and bonecruncher spells

Even braingobbla could work well as chaos has pretty poor Ld for the points. That being said, you would need some decent magic phase tactics against Tzeentch to get through their dispel dice and cast the spells you actually want

Thanks
corai

What I do is just checker your units,bait charges, then watch those expensive knights get mangled by some strength 6-7 models on the counter charge by Ironguts. You just need to make sure you get the charge.

One thing not mentioned is the Gorgers.

These are really good at flanking or baiting an enemy unit. Especially disrupting the opponents cavalry lines by coming on behind or on their flanks.

Killing blow which I keep forgetting is also handy vs. the chaos armour saves.

The problem with Gorgers is that they are no good against even the Hero level Chaos Warrior (the one with WS 7).  That and S4 armies have the ability to actually fight their way out of a Gorger pit.  Against beasts he can be really useful though.  Daemons I need a better look at the book.