8th Edition Tactica - Gut Magic (2011)

To get the most out of our gut Magic I would recommend a Slaughter Master & a Butcher minimum at 2500pt and higher points games. The following analysis is based on having these 2 characters in an Ogre army list.

I don't recommend 2 or 3 Butchers because even though they can 1 dice spam the +2 to dispelling is not good enough in the opponents Magic Phase to prevent their spells going off. Having an SM gives us a 55% chance of preventing spells going off (not taking into account other modifiers) if throwing the same number of dice as an opponents Level 4.

The focus of this discussion is on the Gut Magic itself and not the Magic Defence various items bring to an the Ogre Army.

Useful Magic Items for our Gut Magic

Bound Items
1. Ruby Ring of Ruin (Enchanted)
24" range D6 Str4 hits (good vs Regen saving units) The beauty of this item is it doesn't take up an Enchanted item slot so you can even put it on a Bruiser or Tyrant if you wish.

2. Bangstick (Arcane)
24" range D6 Str4 hits (This is now the second best Bound Item choice, unless facing HE's with Dragon Armour or similar)

Other useful items
1. Grut's Sickle (Arcane)
Although this item is quite expensive and wounds our own troops it is actually very useful for helping get Buffs off and therefore protecting our main Ogre units. (see 1 dice spamming discussion further on)

2. Cookbook (Arcane)
Probably not our first choice of items but in larger games can help prevent wounds on our Butchers or Slaughter Master. The biggest problem with it is it takes up an Arcane item slot which is better served having various scrolls, or even Power Stones.

3. Healing Potion (Enchanted)
This item has probably been overlooked a bit due to our Bloodgruel Spell (which heals 1 wound 5/6 of the time). Particularly useful on a Slaughter Master who has already had 2 or more wounds inflicted on him. Experienced players may prevent Butchers & SM's healing back their wounds which is when the potion comes in very handy. Recommended for 3k+ games where points aren't as tight, but could also be used in lower point friendly or with a specific use in mind.

4. Blood Cleaver (Magic Weapon)
This little gem was tailor made for our Slaughter Master with his 4 attacks at WS4 he is likely to heal a wound back most combats vs rank & file. Wasn't used much in 7th Ed as the Butchers inferior 3 attacks WS3 didn't quite ensure that you recover a wound (unless fighting Zombies or similar low WS troops).

Gut Magic
The main reason for this thread, but further enhanced by some of the above items mentioned. In my opinion Gut Magic cannot succeed with only 1 caster and therefore 2 are needed and an SM & Butcher are optimal. Why you may ask? it's very simple we need to attempt each spell twice to ensure we get the Buffs we need to make our troops more survivable.

In 8th Ed Magic has been simplified by rolling 2 dice your opponent receiving the highest dice rolled for their dispel dice (with bonuses for their various Magic Items, Army rules ie: Dwarves, or lots of cheap casters, etc..).

1 Die Spamming: One possible Casting Strategy
In 7th Ed the Ogres main Magic casting strategy was one dice spamming in order to draw out an opponents dice and eventually get some of our very low cost spells off. The other advantage of this was to lower our chances of miscasting.

This strategy can be used in 8th Ed vs. any army but is particularly designed to reduce the Miscasting chances vs. WoC armies. The WoC Infernal Puppet which modifies our miscast by D3 can basically destroy our Magic phase and will likely lose us the game (see roll of a 1 on our Miscast Table). There are also other items around which make you Miscast if you roll a double.

Chance of a Miscast
1 Die 0%
2 Dice 2.8% (16.7% chance of a double)
3 Dice 6% (36.1% chance of a double)

So as you roll more dice the chance of a Miscast increases.

The other factor is our spells have very low casting values, so why risk a Miscast? Two dice is all we need and we can risk single die rolls a number of times before resorting to 2 dice.

With the advent of 8th Ed. the 1 die spamming is now harder because on the roll of a 1 or a 2 that particular caster cannot continue casting that phase.

However there are several ways around this and one method is single dice casting starting with the Butcher and any Bound items available. This is designed to simply draw out dispel dice from the opponent so that the important Buffs can be cast on our main fighty units later in the Magic Phase.

Keep rolling single die with your Butcher until he fails on a 1 or 2. Then continue with the SM single die rolling until he rolls a 1 or a 2. This is when Grut's Sickle kicks in allowing an immediate extra die to be rolled allowing the SM to continue casting, but inflicting a wound on a Bull as a consequence (I wouldn't use Grut's on Iron Gut's or Maneaters as it is too expensive to sacrifice wounds on these troops). Finally depending on how many dice you have left if even roll 2 at a time from here on (risking a miscast) or if an odd number of dice left 2 at a time and roll the single die last.

The spells we really need to get off might be Trollguts: Regen + MR2, and Toothcracker: +1 Toughness & Stubborn. I personally like to try one or both these spells early before the Butcher rolls a 1 or 2. If successfully cast I then like to try and heal the Butchers wound.

The order and way we cast depends on how many dice we get in the first place, remembering that Grut's Sickle effectively gives us +1 dice but more importantly continues our Magic Phase.

Example a Gut Magic Phase using Grut's Sickle.

Say we roll 6 and 1 for our Magic turn giving us 7 dice to use and our opponent gets 6 dispel dice.

Rolling a single dice with our SM we roll a 3 trying to cast Bullgorger the opponent successfully dispels it on a 4.
We then roll another single dice with the SM and roll a 1 so Grut's Sickle kicks in and we immediately roll a 4 (and taking a wound on a Bull) giving us a total of 5 on 2 dice. The opponent then has to decide to roll 1 or 2 dice at it, which is a win, win situation for us. If he only rolls 1 Die to stop it odds are we will get the spell off, if he decides to use 2 dice that leaves the following:-

We have 5 power dice left opponent has 3 Dispel Dice left.

We can then try to heal the SM's wound back by using 1 die cast by the Butcher, even if the opponent lets this go we still have 4 dice to 3 and could then use 2 x2 dice to cast Toothcracker twice, 1st try with butcher then with Sm.
 

Do you think the Wand of Jet is worth it. it can act like an extra Grut's Sickle for a turn giving us more chances to 1 dice spam.

I think Wand of Jet applies after your roll a 1 or 2 on 1 dice and so doesn't prevent the Butchers Magic phase ending, also being a 1 use item probably not worth it.

There are a number of other Arcane items probably worth trying in higher points games.

Query, factoring into magic item selection: can we still take multiple dispel scrolls in 8th?

1 normal Dispel scroll per army, but you can also take other scroll types eg: Feedback Scroll, Scroll of shielding however they would each have to be on a different Butcher or SM.

No. Every item is a "once per army" thing now.

The only armies I know of to have multiple 'Dispel Scroll's are Dwarfs, Empire and Lizardmen. These can have the regular DS and another army specific item that does the same job, or, in the case of the Dwarfs, many Runes of Spellbreaking.

That makes my beloved Bangstick less attractive to me, then. The Dispel Scroll is just too necessary for me.

I'd love to be convinced otherwise, though!

You could always take dispel Scroll & Ruby Ring instead of Bangstick.

Played 2 games a few days ago and man is gut magic very, very good at making Ogre units tough in the close combat phase.
Very happy with Gut Magic Lore.

Found that I cast 2 spells most of the time,
Bullgorger & Toothcracker, These spells really made units very good at taking hits and dishing them out. With Stubborn making the unit hard to break.
Trollguts I found my Butcher casting it as he has the blood cleaver and cold get wounds back.
Bonecruncher was good for drawing out dispel dice as I would cast this on small vulnerable units.

can someone just clear somethings up for me please im not very experienced with warhammer and learning my ogres. Say i have 2 butchers can they both cast the str buff on the same unit in the same turn m,aking it +2 STR and if so does my opponent then need to dispel two seperate spells to get rid of it. just struggling to get my head around the wording of it.

many thanks

Yes and yes ! You can even redo it next turn for a +4S buff

thats great thanks but each caster can still only cast each spell once, thanks for the quic k response

Each caster can only cast each spell one per turn, xisor.
They're NOT remains in play spells, and are not affected by the rules for such - they can be dispelled in the same manner as RIPs, but you can cast it on the same unit, just as you can cast two buffs on the same unit.

Two Heavens mages could stack Iceshard Blizzard on an enemy for a cumulative -2 to hit, or two Beast mages could stack Wyssan's Wildform for a cumulative +2 S/T, for example.

but i thought i read somewhere that an army can only have each spell once so for example 2 lvl 2 heavens mages could both have iceshard blizzard or am i getting confused with something else?

For more magic users, that is true: only one of each RiP spell per caster. But Gut Magic spells aren't Remain in Play like other lores have (even though they dispel like them) so that rule doesn't apply.

but i thought i read somewhere that an army can only have each spell once so for example 2 lvl 2 heavens mages could both have iceshard blizzard or am i getting confused with something else?

those particular spells can be duplicated because they are the signiture spells.

2 different spells that buff the same stat can eb stacked too. there are 2 Lore of Beasts spells that buff Str so they stack.

It's a weird little loophole and one day when we get a new book it will probably be changed to have the Remains in Play keywords so that this will no longer work.  But for the time being it's all good.

I doubt it.

Gutmagic wasn't labled as being RiP when it was created and that was clearly deliberate.


Gutmagic is Gutmagic and shall remain as such.

So, I'm looking for a bit of advice- in my 2000pt list, I have a SM and Tyrant. The Tyrant is kitted out at 291pts, so with the SM they total 491pts, which is just shy of the maximum allowed. I can't take Grut's Sickle on the SM. Now, I do have a Butcher as well, and I was considering taking the Sickle on that, figuring I'd start with the SM to suck up dispel dice, move to the not-already-cast (3+) spells with the Butcher when he fails, and then two-dice the already-cast (6+) spells after using the Sickle. Is this a solid plan or is there a better use of the points?

it's best to burn dispell dice with the Sickle butcher before the SM goes at anything.


your opponent won't want to let any spells through, but if he risks using one dice to dispell he is risking losing the dispell bonus of one of his wizards. but if he uses 2 dice he is using 2 dispell dice to 1 casting dice. sure he will dispell it, but you have burned 1 power dice for 2 dispell dice.

once he is done dispelling, you can actually get your buffs up. hopefully, the sickle helped burn 3-4 dispell dice leaving a bunch for your Butcher and SM to actually cast stuff.

Trollguts is a decent spell to cast when trying to draw out Dispell dice. opponenets don't want ogres with Regen and will go to great lengths to stop this spell. they will try to dispell this one.

Yeah, that occurred to me, but the problem is that I may waste dice. If the sequence goes:

Butcher 1 die until fail
-Grut's Sickle-
Butcher 1 die until fail
SM 1 die until fail

I may fail with two or three dice left and lose them. I don't want to be two-dicing the SM, as that's pretty wasteful. I also figured, if I open up with the SM, that +4 may encourage the opponent to use two dice to dispel where otherwise he'd use one to match my one.

it's like this.

Grut's sickle butcher: 1 dice untill fail then 2 dice untill all buff spells have been cast once. in the event you didn't fail and you got each buff up on 1 dice then proceed to the SM.

then SM: 2 dice all spells formerly cast by Grut's sickle butcher.


this mitigates the chance of failure to pretty low.


you use the SM last because the 2nd time GM is cast each turn it's a 6+ to cast and he can beat that better then the Butcher. it also makes it harder to dispell his spells.

I had good luck with a SM and butcher in my last tourney (except against the dwarves . There seemed to be two keys to my success: SM had grut's sickle and having a second butcher. The funny thing was that I rolled like crap for winds of magic throughout the tourney, but this combo seemed to work anyway. I would start with 5-6 dice most of the time. I started by 1 dice casting with the SM until I rolled a 1-2 and then threw the sickle die. Because the SM has +4 it forced the opponent to routinely throw 2 dice to stop the spells or risk failing to dispell with 1. Even with a low starting pool of dice, I seemed to be able to get them to use all thier dispell dice and then get a couple spells off with the butcher. Then my opponent had to decide if he was going to gateway me (or whatever he was hoping to throw 6 dice at) or dispell my RIPs. Often, by turn 2-3, I had doubled up on many of the buffs and was slamming into combat with my opponents face drooping as he asked... "thier toughness is 6 now?"

Why did your SM have the Sickle?

the Butcher is the one who needs to 1 dice spam spells. he casts first needing 3+(which will only fail on a 1 or 2) the Sickle prevents him from losing concentration the first time.

the SM then uses 2 dice to recast all the Buffs again(using his +4 to cast to blow past the additional +3 needed) to ensure they go off and prevent him from losing concentration(going from a 1/3 chance to a 1/36 chance)

your opponent will have to either dispell the Spells that go in on one dice. he won't want to use 2 because it would eat up his dice, but he doesn't want to risk a lost concentration with his Wizard and be unable to dispell you at all(because with you getting a +4 or +2, dispelling without a wizard is really last ditch)

I can see the logic in a weird way. Give it to a SM and have him go first, and one die stuff. If it's successfully cast, it's a minimum of a 7 to dispel. That could cause someone to use 2 dice to dispel your one dice spell. Either that, or risk losing concentration on their own Lvl 4. This assumes that your SM gets very few spells successfully cast, but he draws out all the Dispel dice. Then the Butcher uses 2 dice to cast the spells you actually want cast. With 2 dice the Butcher doesn't fail often, 1/36 if nothing's been cast going to 1/12 if it has.

It's worth some thought.

How about:
SM - Sickle, Fencer's, Wyrdstone = 290
Butcher - Ward save (If he's going to cast the most he's going to lose the most wounds. I'd say 5+ at least) = 160 to 175

Could make for an interesting magic phase...

That's the thing,

with the Butcher casting first, you arn't wasting your Lvl4 on spells that will most likely get stopped, but your opponent will use the same number of dice either way.

using the Butcher and only having the casting value be 5-8 tempts your opponent to just use one dice to dispell(he wants those dice to last, possably to dispell previous buffs) and risking a lost concentration.

by using the SM with the sickle you are forcing your opponent to play it safe and use 2 dice with a good chance of getting rid of your spell. he won't even consider using only 1 dice when a SM is casting, but he might when a butcher is doing it because, if our spell goes off, it doesn't matter who cast it.

After playing in a Tourney recently (couldn't fit Gruts into my list) I found a combination of 2 dice and 1 dice casting worked pretty well. Though I did get the odd miscast during the tourney, I only used more than 2 dice on a couple of occasions.

If I had an odd number of dice I usually cast my last spell on 1 dice.

The funniest game was my SM miscasting and becoming frenzied for the rest of the game.

2250-2500pt Games
Optimal Gut Magic Phase = SM & Butcher
Minimal Successful Gut Magic Phase = 2 Butchers
SM = Magic Defence (weaker Gut Magic)
1 Butcher (not a very good Magic Phase)