So, whats left after...

Ok, so I am wondering whats left for us, if we can't hit the enemy because of low WS and we can't save due to the fact that we can only have light armor.

maybe the tactical advantage gorgers offer, but thier ws is low too, so thats out of the question.

maybe the three wounds, but if i can't save, its almost the same as having one wound of your opponent has 10 or so troops.

Have i chosen an army which is just a little (<== sarcasm) unbalanced?

sorry, i am just a bit frustrated.

You got it the wrong way round mate..

The low ws is a problem but ws4 should be reserved for elite troops (which ogres are not)..

In the end tho the problem is not with the ogres - it's with all the other armies such as lizardmen, bretts, woodies, dwarfs etc..
GW seems to be toning up the power lvl of fantasy armies but they didnt do that with the ogres..

With that said, the disadvantages can be overcome by your advantages..
High movement ensures you get to combat faster (essentially increasing your wounds).. It also ensures you have it easiere getting a charge in (and a flank charge at the same time), meaning the low initiative and armour save should mean less in combat as you should win and overrun more often than not..

Expect to lose the first 10-15 games. It's a hard learning curve but you'll become a better player..

I lost my first few games too, but one was in a campaign and I was playing with 2k while my opponent had 3k.  Still, in turn 3, I was thinking I could pull it out..but nope.  An ogre rout.  lol

I have been doing better lately, but the WS 3 issue is NOT one to be underestimated.  It means you will almost ALWAYS be hitting on 4's, while your opponent hits at least as well as you, probably better.  The reason 4+ to hit is so painful is because ogres are down that initial 5+ static CR (unless you can get in the flankers; not always a given).  You rush in with ironguts, all bold and walking with a swagger, only to have them whiff, get one wound, and then lose combat in humiliating fashion.  I agree ogres are not elite troops, but they shouldn't be such oafs that they can't hit the side of a barn with a club!  Bull Charge helps this SOME...but any time you have to roll dice, and the other guy just gets static CR...fortune can and will slap you around.  Even that awesome tyrant with a tenderiser is all too vulnerable to the 5 1's and 2's which equal a whiff.

I look at it this way.  If I can win with ogres, then I AM a superior general.  lol  I agree they are not underpowered, but I also agree many of the other armies ARE overpowered, so we are back to square one.

But then again we DO have the coolest army out there, so that has to count for something.    

Not to mention that our attacks:frontage ratio is the best of any army overall.

Fear and bull charge go some way towards compensating for the lack of WS, although I certainly agree that a base 6+ AS for 'tough hide' would be a good idea.

Well, AGainst this army i was playing tonight, most of the hits on my bruiser were 5+ armor saves....thats ok...

But, my 6 bulls up against 2 minitaurs....no AS...none, even with the optional light armor...thats absolutely ridiculous, considering the 2 minitaurs have 8 attacks and best i can ope for using a club and iron fist is 6 attacks...

I can lose a unit, then have to run because of CS....

thats seems like an issue with MY troops, not theirs....but i could be wrong.

But, my 6 bulls up against 2 minitaurs....no AS...none, even with the optional light armor...thats absolutely ridiculous, considering the 2 minitaurs have 8 attacks and best i can ope for using a club and iron fist is 6 attacks...

i think you mean 8 attacks (2 ogres with clubs (HW) and ironfists)...unless you were using the IFs as armor.  the minotaurs were wielding double handed weapons then?

If you charge the Minitaurs you should get 3 s5 impact hits and 12 A one of your Ogres should be on the corner of the minitaur. 3 per Ogre and an addtional 1 per Ogre for Ironfist. Unless I'm missing something? Don't get down if you get slapped around a bit Ogres take some getting use to and some time nothing goes right.

hrmmm....sorry could you guys explain that to me again?

I dont quite understand.

A unit of bulls, rank of 3, Club and Iron fist, 2 attacks each, thats 6 attacks all up.

And as long as I was at least 6 inches away, then yes, the bull charge attacks aswell...

I am not EXACTLY sure on the rules for Minatuars but they had 8 attacks.

To continue on with my journey, before i came here into work today, i went and visited my local hobby store, and talked with the guy who works there...

And he has helped me realise i didn't choose an EASY army to start playing. But ina way I guess thats good... I am feeling better then I was, but i still believe there are problems which need to be addressed.

one rank of 3 ogres is a base of 3 attacks per ogre, or 9 total, +1 extra each for the iron fists (assuming you did not use them as shields), meaning a total of 12 attacks for 3 ogres.  if you got the 6"+ charge, then that is 3 strength 4 auto-hits as well.

wait a minute....ogre bulls have 3 attacks ???

I swear i was just looking at my army book at home....and i didn't realise...

wait a minute....ogre bulls have 3 attacks ???

I swear i was just looking at my army book at home....and i didn't realise...

I predict your win ratio will go up now.   :wink:

     

could be....could be.

I guess i could have missed it because i haven't slept in 24 hours...

I will give my opinion on this and I hope that some will read.

Let's talk about the bulls, I never ever give them ironfist, light armour, 2 weapons. The way I see it, they have 3 attacks each, if champion 4. I always have them use their clubs because they give a -2 to armour save, Now most units the bulls will face will have a a 5+ or 6+ armour save. So that means no armour save for them.
If your wearing light armour and use the ironfist as a shield, you will have a 5+ to armour save right ? Now let's say that your opponent causes 5 wounds at -1 so you still get a 6+ armour save and your lucky to roll two 6's, so a bull dies.
Now here's my stratagy, I put 0 armour so it's straight roll and kill for the opponent. I field between 2 to 3 butchers in my army, so I can attempt to cast trollguts on my bulls. Let's say the spell is in play, ok so I got 6 wounds no saves!! Two ogres die but have the chance to regenerate on a 4+ (no minuses) So the way I see this, regenerate is like having a ward save of 4+. The only thing is you have to cast it and if the opponent tries to dispell it on his turn (power level of 7, then you must cast it again on your turn. having 2-3 butchers will help help for sure. But that is just my way of thinking,
Also, having a WS is not that great but then again, even if you have WS 4, mostly you will still hit on 4's. If the initiative was higher so you can hit first then that would be cool but too much. So regenerate people, they have 3 wounds so you get more attacks even if your charged from the other person. If you charge the other, good chances is that he will reply with a champion only since you will kill alot.

I might see it differently and all wrong but at least my opinion is out

If I had time, I would use excel and do the math, but I am pretty sure the extra attack is better than the extra -1 to save, in terms of wounds caused.

Basic opponent with ws4, t4, as4+
Two ogre units, one with ogre clubs, the other with AHW.

Ogre clubs:
9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wound, he saves on a 6+ meaning 1,875 wounds inflicted

AHW:
12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, he saves on a 5+ meaning 2 wounds inflicted

Cant be arsed to do more calculations (and this could be wrong (2 am) - but I assumed the lower the save the enemy has the better output from AHW and vice versa with clubs..

so wait, trollguts can regenrate the bulls wounds?

Could you explain exactly what it does?

I don't have my rule book with me but look under special rules. You have killing blows, poison attacks and others including regenerate. Like it says in the OK army book, nomite an ogre unit which mean anything that is ogre. I'm not sure if Yhetees and gorgers count as ogres. I would say no but I might be wrong. So yes, if you have the trollgut spell in play on that unit and you get 12 wounds, which means 4 ogres are dead basically, then you roll 12 dice and the amount of dice you get on a 4+ is the number of wounds your ogres regain. But try looking in the rule book, they have a perfect example with the trolls.

I have some friends from GW and one of them plays the ogres. What he told me, ogres have the best magic in the game because you put spells in play for cheap 3+ and the effect it does !!  WOW.
Imagine you can put toothcracker (+1 toughness and stuborn) or trollguts (gain regeneration and magic resistance of 2). Do you know how much regeneration spell actually can piss off your opponent ?? Specially when he caused 6 wounds, saying in his head (+6 combat reso) until you say regeneration time, then you roll five +4 on 6 dice which gives him (+1 combat reso).

I almost just choked to death. I had just tooken a bite of a very late dinner, its 11pm on the west cost here, when I read Psykopig last reply. Sorry but that was funny.

As I remember there was a post on this forum where the guy actually made a calculator for figuring this stuff out and in most cases it's better to have the extra attack then the armor piercing club.  I believe,if my memory serves me right, that 12 attacks is the same as 9 attacks with the club at an armor value of 3+, and the greater the armor the better the club is but the less the armor the better the extra attack is.  Most troops won't have better than a 3+ armor so the extra attack will in most cases be as good if not better than the club, though granted you do pay a whopping 2-3 pts extra per model (no big deal in my opinion).  Also, Ghengis, a bull with light armor and ironfist will get a 4+ save in CC, not 5+ (+1 for the armor, +1 for the shield, and +1 for shield and hand weapon).  Also, as for the low armor of our troops, we do get models with T 4 W 3, that aren't affected by killing blow, wide front, etc. and that IS a big deal.  When you take into account that our heros are better than most out there IMHO (1-2 more wounds and 1 more attack on avg.) and we have spells that can give us a further +1 T/stubborn, +1 Str., or regeneration/MR 2 and all of these remain in play (even with the butcher able to cast more spells afterwards) I don't think that ogres are that bad off.  Even in our magic item lists, we have a talisman giving us a 5+ ward save for dirt cheap, a multiwounding GW, cheap big name giving us +1 T, MR3 talisman thats extremely cheap, etc. I truely believe that ogres are a competitive army when fielded correctly.  They do have a decent learning curve, but they are also cheaper than alot of other armies to collect, easy to paint, and are a blast to play (and thus learn) with.  But then that's just my opinion which others may, and probably will disagree with...assuming they actually read this lengthy post.

Hmmm so the bulls with Ironfist, lite armour, that's if I don't use the ironfist as a weapon no ?  I was sure that you get +1 for light armour and +1 for ironfist if you decide to use it as a shield for that round or turn ?? . Someone get back to me on this.

The ironfist will give you a +2 Save in HTH, just like a shield, because the ogre club becomes a regular hand weapon (loses its armor piercing attribute) when you combine it with an IF.  So light armor + IF used defensively = 4+ AS in HTH.

But remember you can't change back and forth from shield to weapon its one or the other for the whole combat!

If your wearing light armour and use the ironfist as a shield, you will have a 5+ to armour save right ?

4+ sv. if you use IF as a shield with lt. armor.