Gruts sickle!

Ok this was sorta discussed in another thread but i think it should be brought up in rules here

BRB states - If the wizard fails to equal a spells casting value or the total of the natural dice score is 1 or 2 not
only is the spell not cast but the wizard breaks concentration and is unable to cast for the rest of the magic phase.

Gruts sick -after rolling you may cause a wound on a unit to gain another casting dice, this casting dice is rolled immediately and added to the casting total (may cause irresistable force or a miscast as usual.

Now the question is, if you try castin on 1 die and roll a 1 or 2 can you use the sickle?

Seems to me that the sickle would work. I dont really know which one takes prescedence but if you think about it, last edition if you rolled a 1 or 2 the spell would fail....but your sickle comes into play first right? well why wouldnt it immediately come into play here.

Way i see it u get to throw in another power dice (thus changing your natural 1 or 2 to whatever you get on the 2 dice)... if you didnt it would have been useless last edition too because the spell would have failed before you got to use it...no?

In the end if you do use it you (possibly) neither fail to cast nor get a natural dice score of 1 or 2...

Unfortunately,

A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite the level of the wizard. This is true regardless of any bonuses, from any source.

The additional die is most definitely a bonus. The sickle didn't work last edition either.

I respectfully disagree Eg...

I think that the catch phrase is: "A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure(...)"

Since "Gurts Sickle" adds a die, the 1 or 2 total must only be accounted after "Gurts Sickle" die is rolled.

Mind you that a failiure is still possible on two rolls of "1" (I know it all too well  )

Indeed, "dice total" would seem to represent the total of all DICE you've rolled, not including magic items, wizard levels, etc.

If this wasn't the case, things like the Slann's extra casting die wouldn't help their spells not-fail, which seems silly.

I just don't see the point. At approx 12pts a dice what gut magic spell could be worth it? You already cast with a 4+ on a SM and you only need a 3 at a minimum?

Maybe in practice it will be better but on paper it seems silly.

I think it's less about the single spell, and more about avoiding an early end to the casters magic phase.

The difference between getting bull gorger off or not isn't really significant. The risk of ending your Slaughtermasters casting on his first attempt at a spell is huge.

-Rick

I like to think of it as insurance. 12 points for an additional dice is a lot, but you should be using it 30% of the time or less. It allows you to safely 1 dice cast and only use it if you fail early in the phase. With another butcher casting in the same phase the SM still gets all his spells off on a 3+ thanks to his +4 to cast. Late in the phase you can keep the pressure on.

That makes more sense but I still can't see myself using this item. I think it is much better now in 8th but I will have to play some games with it before I can fully commit.

I think the Grut's sickle is the casters best item in 8th ED. It gives our SM to cast spells with 1D6+4 and draw out two dispell dice per one power die. A normal roll of 7 or 8 puts pressure on the opponent to either gamble with one dice or play it safe and use two. So for 3 single die spells the slaughtermaster can empty the opponents dispell dice pool leaving 4+ dice to do what he wishes with the rest of his spellcasters.

I always run a Slaughtermaster AND a butcher at 2500pts. And with a casting success of 3+ spells a turn after dispells I think I have one of the more powerfull spellphases in the game.

On the other hand I have an extra ogre in the unit to carv on. So for every time I'm forced to use the sickle and compensate for that natural one or two rolled on the first dice its 1/3 out of 40pts Ogre used. However those 14 points are well spent getting through 3+ spells a turn.

The important thing to remember is that our magical offence is one of our best magical defences as well as it takes powerdice in their own magic phase to eliminate our RIP spells they cant afford to let us keep.

so...it works then?

indeed it does since it adds a dice NOT D6 to the casting value.

Grut's looks bad as its pricey and you wound your own troops, however it helps with the single dice spamming.

Why would you bother with single dice spamming you might ask? Simple answer is to reduce the chance of a miscast.

Most of the time our miscasts are harmless, however rolling a 1 on our miscast table is a game breaker (Ogres will generally lose).

Most of you are thinking so what? the chance of a 1 on the miscast is low anyway.

However the WoC item the Infernal Puppet makes the chance of a 1 significantly higher (modifying our miscast by D3). So potentially if we roll a 4 or less on our Miscast table we are losing 1 or all our casters.

Most of the time our miscasts are harmless, however rolling a 1 on our miscast table is a game breaker (Ogres will generally lose).

OK, I get the second part of that sentance. 1 is bad.

However, there are not that many results on that table that are not horrible.
1 = death, and death to other butchers
2 = not a wizard anymore
3 = D3 wounds. Possible death, as it comes AFTER spellcasting.
4 = That spell is lost from ALL butchers for the game. All our spells are critical, and losing any is horrible.

5 is OK, as high toughness will protect our troops, and 6 is actually beneficial.

I would really not like a Miscast chart that screws me over 67% of the time...

Ye good point Sandals there are some nasties on our Miscast table, which makes Grut's Sickle even better as we need to 1 dice spam more.

A 2 on the miscast table is only D6 Str 4 hits which doesn't mean a dead SM especially if there are already Buff's on the unit he is in.

However I wouldn't recommend risking more than 2 dice very often to cast our spells (especially vs. Infernal Puppet WoC & if Pandamonium has been cast, and the dark Elf item causing doubles to miscast) unless feeling lucky.

A 2 on the miscast table is only D6 Str 4 hits which doesn't mean a dead SM especially if there are already Buff's on the unit he is in.

That's not the bad part of that roll, it's the "not being a wizard" part! So you then have a 200-300 point Ogre who is only just more effective than a normal Bull...

Woah threadomancy...

I'll keep this one open but keep an eye on the dates of the threads you are posting in please.

Thanks.

Ye sorry Randroid but with 8th Ed Tactics still being explored, wasn't sure if it was worth starting a whole new thread.

Getting back on topic Yes I agree our miscast table can be pretty bad especially if our roll gets modified. hence the reason for attempting 1 Die spamming where possible.

Well, and 1 Die spamming eats up Dispel dice.

I roll a 4 and if my opponent wants to risk rolling a 1-2 and not being able to add +2 to +4 to his dispel attempts they tend to roll 2 dice or letting the spell go. If they are focussed on stopping you from having Regen or Stubborn then they will often let a Str buff, Braingobbler, or Bonecruncher through. Braingobbler doesn't pay off very often, but when it does it is often memorable. Bonecrucher doesn't do a ton of damage, but it can strip enough off to eliminate a rank. Every bit counts.

I will also agree that Grut's Sickle is a totally sick item.
I think going Ogrestar/2x caster is the most effective way to play Ogres in 8th edition. Magic with the sickle and 2 casters rolling 1 dice for casting is absolutely brutal. With the sickle, I have had magic phases where I've attempted to cast all of the gut magic spells TWICE in one phase by single rolling and having that sickle jump in to save my only 1 or 2 during casting.
The key is jumping to two dice on your main caster after your first butcher with the sickle breaks concentration again AFTER using the sickle to save your first one. The good news is that usually with the 4+ and two dice you won't be dispelled too often.
Read the article in the Bellower about 1 dice spamming and the other threads on here.