Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Wood Elves

Hragged date unknown

Summary from the old forum:

MSU all the way. Just cover enough of the board that your opponent cant maneuver and just push him into a corner and crush him with anything that you have. Just dispel as much as possible and shoot with many leadbelchers as you can.

- justanotherogre

As a Wood Elf player, I can say that Ogres are one of the easiest armies for us to beat, simply because you have no rank bonus and very little in the way of shooting and direct damage magic. Those are our weaknesses, and you guys just don't have them.

Contrary to what Taladryel said, Wood Elves actually didn't get much better. Their magic got a lot worse - their mages got more expensive, and now only the Archmage has the option to take Life lore, hero level mages may only take the lore of Athel Loren, which is much less agressive than Life. Most of the spells are unit boosting spells, somewhat similar to gut magic (but harder to cast).

Most of the big complaints have been address, like the Dryads' 6's to hit. Dryads now have no aspects like they did before. They have the same stat line, cause fear, are immune to psychology, and have a 5+ daemonic save (i.e. ward save that doesn't work against magic). They're also 12 points. Wardancers no longer have an unbreakable dance. Their best defensive dance simply gives them a 4+ ward save, however they are more offensive, getting +1 strength on the charge (which, with the +1 attack dance, means 3 strength 4 attacks each on the charge). They are now 18 points.

There are a couple new units - Wild Riders, which are fast cavalry and cause fear on the charge, have a base strength of 4, and are immune psychology. They also get +1 attack on any turn they don't charge. This is perhaps the single best wood elf unit, though the new cheaper dryads are pretty sweet, too.

The other new unit is Treekin, 65 point big guys with S5, T5, 4+ armor save, and a 5+ daemonic save, cause fear and immune to psychology. However, they're only movement 5. A really tough unit, to be sure, but expensive, and slower than average for units like it.

Wood Elves in general may move and shoot without penalty. This is a pretty cool bonus - very flavorful and quite useful. However, they lose the -1 to armor saves at short range and do suffer long range penalties.

Waywatchers no longer see 4" through woods. Instead, they have killing blow at short range. They're also 26 points each.

The archers are now called Glade Guard, and have S4 at short range.

The rank and file which used to be called Glade Guard are now called Eternal guard. They have a 5+ armor save and get two attacks per model in the first rank and one attack per model in the second rank, and are stubborn if joined by a fighty elven character.

- The Souljourner

My initial thoughts having read the book but not faced them are that dryads and wildriders are going to be the biggest threat. Both hit hard and will be able to get into the flanks. Making sure there is an ogre in the back rank to move into combat and/or a character to protect the flanks could counter this.

- revolting

I really dread Wardancers. 3 attacks each that hit on 3s and wound on 4s when charging, plus very good manoeuverability means that each dancer they get into combat means one wound on your unit, and they get a lot of models in combat.
I shall try ramming them with my Scraplauncher.

- Avian

I have played a WE player twice. Treekin are a royal pain in the you-know-what. Normal units of ogres and yhettees just bounce off of them. Leadbelchers are a total waste to shoot at them; wounds on 5's, and then he gets two 5+ saves per wound. Not fun.

- Yaroslav the Ravenous

Well, let's see first and foremost against the Wood Elves you have to counter their shooting. We're Ogres. Armor won't cut it. Especially since Glade Guard get S4 bows at short range. Trying to out right avoid these guys is difficult, since they are move and fire.

The best way to deal with them is a screen. Either Gnoblars or naked Bulls. I highly recommend the naked Bulls. You get a screen 4 or 5 long, and they can survive direct bow fire from a row of 24 Glade Guard for 2-3 turns. Back them up with a Kineating Tyrant and you're golden.

Other Wood Elf archers are most inconsequential as only the Glade Guard get S4. Plus other shooty Elves are going to be either scouting skirmishers or fast cavalry or characters. Don't waste your time with these! At best consider using Gnoblar Trappers as non-scouts (only with the best of luck will they be of ANY use to you scouting) or keep a group of 3 Yhetees back behind your main force to keep fast cav away with their 14" charge arc.

That second tactic comes highly recommended and is honestly a great way to field Yhetees and keep them alive and useful for the first half of any game.

Dryads are a problem. When they hit you, you will probably lose. They hit on 3s, wound of 4s (against RNF ogres) and get two attacks each. However (as with Treekin, though I haven't played against them yet) they are Forest Spirits, and therefore Immune to Psych, and therefore THEY CAN'T FLEE. You're faster than they are and if you can get the charge on them, you've won.

Even groups of 2 Bulls with only AW have a decent chance to beat 8 Dryads in combat. Slim chance that they'll break unless you've got a standard bearer along too, but if this is the opportunity you have TAKE IT! Dryads will hurt if they are allowed to charge.

Incidentally, Yhetees are nice to have against WE because their magic weapons will negate the Forest Spirit ward save. A group of 3 can, again, take care of those pesky Dryads for you, and again the Dryads can't flee! Four, not often done here at the Stronghold, will guarentee this. Incidentally, try to keep them near Tyrant so you can prevent them from pursuing into the Glade Guards' firing arc.

Now, I haven't fought Treekin, -men, War Dancers or Wild Riders yet. (Sorry!) But I do know, and you can work out the math to prove it, that their Dragon, as with almost any other, can be ripped apart in two turns by a Tyrant with the Tenderizer proved he either a) causes Terror himself, or is with a unit so he doesn't get Outnumbered and has to auto-break in case he loses.

More later... as I come up against them. Sadly, I've only fought mostly Core armies of WE (all my girlfriend has), but I've worked tactics with Ogres to the point where I can win almost every time.

Screening against that shooting is priority #1.

- Gutzkrieger

I've just finished playing a couple of games against a full forest spirit army, and I must say it plays very differently to other WE armies.

Dryads: These guys are really irritating because in small groups they can be just as powerful as 3 bulls. And in big groups they can be as powerful as 5. The way I beat them was letting them come to me (doing some math so they'd be an inch away in charge), and then rely on my superior charge range, and their inability to flee. Ironguts rip them apart, so I send a squad into them alone, but with bulls I always double up the charge. Works wonders.

Tree-kin: They only come in squads of 3, and I have actually found them surprisingly ineffective unless charging a flank. A big unit of Bulls or Guts can easily take care of them.

Treeman: Not as terrifying as his stats led me to believe. I threw two Maneaters with GW at him, and they were doing 3-4 wounds a turn on him, only getting 1 back because of their good WS.

Wild Riders: Now these guys are irritating, but then all cavalry is. If they get a flank charge then you're probably stuffed. What's good to remember is their low toughness. Leadbelchers should be able to take care of them fairly easily, killing 4 in a round of shooting with a little luck.

Overall Forest Spirit armies are easier to take care of than I thought. One just has to realise that their basic guys can match ours in combat. They have a higher WS and only 1 less attack. So you have to ensure you charge them.

- Tony

Treekin are nasty nasty nasty. Ogres on serious steroids. They can shrug off missile fire and regular ogres like they are nothing. Do NOT confront a treekin unit except with overwhelming force. A tyrant with a tenderiser is a good choice (don't forget to challenge if there is a campion!). Or if you kit out an iron guts unit with the Cannibalism banner, that works well. One of the only real uses for that banner, besides trolls, other ogre players, or minotaurs.

- Yaroslav the Ravenous

I'm going up against wood elves for the first time on monday so im not sure what to expect, but then again my mates never played ogres. it's only a 1500 point game so im hopeing there wont be many treekin or dryads.

This is the army im most likely to be taking:

Bruiser with cathayan longsword, heavy armour, wyrdstone necklace, 2 luck gnoblars and giant breaker big name.

5 Ironguts with full command.

6 Bulls with additional hand weapons, light armour and full command.

6 Bulls with iron fists, light armour and full command.

31 Gnoblars including groinbiter.

1 Scraplauncher

1 Slavegiant

My slavegiant and bruiser can take on any treemen or tree kin (with the equipment the bruisers got he has WS6 S6 A5 and 5+ ward save with re rolls). Ironguts will go after dryads while the gnoblars will go after archers with the bulls going after what they want. The scraplauncher can either provide covering fire or help in combat.

- Noz

I have played WE 3 times recently.

A treeman will usually bitch slap a slave giant. Be wary of that matchup. His toughness is 6 while yours is 5. He is stubborn. You are not. He can shoot with NASTY Str 5 hits. You cannot.

Don't attack treekin with anything other than a tenderiser wielding tyrant or iron guts (preferably with cannibal totem), unless you just have mad lucky dice. They will munch bulls, yhettees, LBs...

DO NOT GO INTO THE WOODS. Period. If your yhettees have to, make sure they CLEAR the woods by the end of their movement. Use your yhettees in non-woods terrain. Wood Elf players HATE having to deal with non-woods terrain since they must deal with it the same as the rest of us poor slobs; by crawling through.

Use strict randon terrain placement. Don't give in to "hey, lets try a game with lots of woods...". It won't be any fun for you.

Dryads are nasty for skirmishers. They can chew up a bull unit.

- Yaroslav the Ravenous

Always bring a magic weapon with your fighting characters, even if it is just a lowly biting blade. You need the magic weapon to negate the ward saves of those dryads and their bigger kin.

- Lord_Byron

revolting date unknown

I've now played three 1k games against wood elves. The core of my opponents list stayed the same 2x10 glade guard, 2x8 dryads and 2x5 gladeriders and a branchwraith.

The biggest success in my force has been the bruiser, run on his own with the sword of might. He can take the shooting and when fighting dryads he hits on 3s, wounds on 2s and negates their ward save. In the last game I took 2 hunters. I'd field them again but with the sword of striking and sword of battle and run them at dryads.

Glade guard are proving to be worse to face than I had expected. As they are the least manouverable part of my opponents list I've started to run at least two units at them. Normally one gets taken down by shooting or intercepted by dryads but the other gets through.

The leadbelchers have been useful but have not killed much. They've deterred the fast cav from coming too close but have only got into range once. Learnt the hard way not to shoot at dryads, waste of time.

The biggest surprise so far was a unit of gnoblars holding up a unit of dryads. The gnoblars drew the combat with 3 ranks and outnumbering.

The unit I least want to see next are wildriders. Whilst not as tough as dryads, they hit as hard with a longer range. My opponent could easily replace his gladeriders with wildriders for no extra points.

With their special abilities how effective do you think scraplaunchers and yhettis would be against wood elves? Would they be worth their high points cost?

Yaroslav the Vast date unknown

Yhettees are fragile (as usual) but great, unless the terrain in question is woods. Beware the Tree Singing spell. Much slaughter will ensure for any troops in the woods.

And treekin are death. Don't send anything less than a character backed-up gut unit to try to tackle them, unless you have cannibal totem.

But I have only fought 2k+ battles vs WE's, so my experiences are skewed.

Yaroslav The Vast
Tyrant of the Ash Wastes

Grokfol Elfchomper date unknown

He can take the shooting and when fighting dryads he hits on 3s, wounds on 2s and negates their ward save.

How do you negate something's ward save?

Coming soon from Grokfol's Gnoblar Workteam:
Yorfarg and Ashadrianus [special characters]

Darryush the Konkeror date unknown

He has been equipped with a magic weapon that negates their forest spirit save.

Yaroslav the Vast date unknown

Yes, the forest spirit save is like a demonic save, not a true ward save. It is negated by magical attacks.

Yaroslav The Vast
Tyrant of the Ash Wastes

Grokfol Elfchomper date unknown

I see...

Wait.

I'm BLIND!!!1

Coming soon from Grokfol's Gnoblar Workteam:
Yorfarg and Ashadrianus [special characters]

Ogre Dave date unknown

Well we always play games of at least 2250 or higher. my biggest problem thus far has been the dragon, with the lord on it. Definitly does a lot of damage. another problem are treeman as he fielded two of them along with the dragon.

Easy way to destroy a treeman i found was yhetees. they have magical weapons tons of movement and can go through impassable terrain. I took a unit of 5 with no champion. they definitly tore the treeman to shreds in one turn and didn't take any wounds. unfortunatly he deployed his other tree man on the other side of the board and took my yhetees down with three mages on horses (i believe they were anyways.)
and i definitly didn't use my hunter properly on the other side of the board as i wanted him to take on the tree man but instead he got tied up with dryads and crumbled without his sabertusks (sad to say).

as for the dragon, tyrant is the way to go with that. He didn't field any archers as with armour and ironfists you get relatively good saves on your ogres instead he went with treekin, glade riders, wardancers, and some kind of cavalry unit that was really good.
Tyrant can take on the dragon but unfortunatly his unit got flanked by that treeman and glade riders as well as the dryads(after they were done with the hunter). Glad to say the tyrant's unit took out the treeman, the glade riders, took the dryads down to less then half of their size, but couldn't do enough damage to the dragon, and after 3 rounds of combat the unit final broke and the dragon ran them down.... very disappointing.

I would have to say that the best thing to go with would be a unit of 4 maneaters with the tyrant and bruiser in there, and take a warbanner with the bruiser. definitly a kickass unit and will be able to dish out a lot more damage as the unit that took on all those wood elves was only a unit of 4 bulls with the tyrant and bruiser.

"Little green things that catch little things. Mind you I did see one of them Elfs with a bear trap clamped on his 'ead once, made me laugh fer days."

Genghis Khan date unknown

I read almost all in this topic but I haven't seen any stratagy against them. I had one game against them and the moving terrain got me confused. If you have any suggestions on units or even setup, please write in and share your knowledge. icon_smile

Tournament Results

Massacre: 9 Solid Victory: 14 Minor Victory: 6 Draw: 5 Minor Defeat: 3 Solid Defeat: 3 Massacred: 2

THEFAN date unknown

I will be playing the weenie elves this coming Thursday 1500 pts. I intedn on bring smaller units of bulls with irguts to back them up. I will post results after. Talk Later THEFAN

http://www.freewebs.com/thefansclubhouse/policieslinks.htm

Rogg date unknown

I have now played 4 2000pt battles with Wood elfs and they haven't be a problem for me yet 3 wins 1 draw. These are three differnt people two of whom are good players. As for tatics screen your big units with naked bulls use leadbelchers to protect your flanks from their fast cal. Your Hunter with a magic weapon can take out a treeman if he hides in the trees go in after him, and use your Maneaters to go up against his treemen. Hopefully you can get troll guts on them, this will even the playing field out, or do like I do stick you tyrant in with your maneater with a tenderizer. Last game though I forgot to roll the d3 wounds dud!!! Rhinox Riders will run wild over dryads / wild riders and if their tooled up they have a good armour save to protect you from those arrows. And don't forget your trappers, they can mach block this fast army and may even take out a few things, in one of my games I took out a lord on his stagg! Watch out for their little witch in the trees I don't know her name but she can be a pain. Take lots of dispell scrolls keep those dam trees from moving. Also they can turn things etheral so watch out for that. Over all try to surround and pound them, or push them into a corner. Hope this helps.

Genghis Khan date unknown

Less than a month, I will be playing in a HoH tournament. Last time I played wood elves, what was confusing me was the bound spells moving his terrain around. First of, can he do his bound spells anytime ? Last time I played against, he had surrounded me with woods.

Tournament Results

Massacre: 9 Solid Victory: 14 Minor Victory: 6 Draw: 5 Minor Defeat: 3 Solid Defeat: 3 Massacred: 2

Elsinthun date unknown

OK what did the guy you were playing have in his army? If he had Treemen or Treemen Ancients then yes he can cast Treesing as a bound (Treesing is the tree moving spell, D3+1"). Treemen can cast it once as a bound, Ancients can cast it twice per turn as a bound and all Wood Elf magic users can cast it. It is a deadly spell when used well but easy to dispell. Bound spells can be cast at anytime in the Magic Phase I believe, no restrictions on when it must be.

-Elsinthun

EDIT: I've just noticed an error in your tactica, Waywatchers are 24pts not 26.

2006:
Wins: 2
Draws:1
Loses: 2

Garsnig date unknown

My main gaming partner is a Wood Elf player, and I play him regularly. Things that I have found that are devastating of his are really only his Wardancers, Wild Riders, and Treeman Ancient. Although Dryads are good if you let him charge them where he wants to.

First I will address the Wardancers. If these guys get the charge on you, I have found they will tear apart whatever they hit. They charge in and do their +1 attack dance so they are attacking with 3 attacks each at strength 4. This makes it so that he hits on 3s and wounds on 4s. My friend always runs a unit of 8 with full command and a hero in the unit. The hero will almost always have the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways, which lets them teleport from one forest to another one at the end of his movement phase. This item is usually paired with the special wardancer swords that let him reroll failed to wound rolls. In summary, DO NOT GET CHARGED BY THEM! If you can get the charge off, they will be screwed. An example of how deadly these guys are, is that I felt like goofing off and fielded a unit of 12 maneaters just to have fun. He got the charge off into my front. In a total of three combat phases, he had destroyed my entire unit without me being able to attack back ONCE!

Next up is the Wild Riders. These guys are hairy because of their fast cav rules and being strength 5 fear causing cavalry on the charge with a 5+ ward save. Mainly if they don't charge you in a flank or the rear, you can most likely take them.

Lastly is the Treeman Ancient. This guy is SATAN if you are not careful. Not only can he cast tree singing twice and use an artilery die shooting attack, but if you are playing against a smart player he will have a cheap spite upgrade called Annoyance of Nettlings. This lovely spite just made ALL of you characters die when they get into combat with him. Pretty much this spite makes it so whenever in a challenge the opponent needs 6s to hit...ALWAYS! So no matter what you do to your characters, they are being whacked with 6 attacks hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s (if you don't use Mawseeker). Meanwhile while he's stomping you in a challenge, you're A-Teaming it (or whiffing it, whatever you want to call it). I have never killed a Treeman Ancient in CC whith any characters, the best that is available is to attack him with Yhetees. They are the only ones who can really matche him because of their magic attackes negating his ward save.

So there you have it, my personal experiences against the Wood Elves. I hope you can get something out of it the easy way instead of what I did and find this all out the hard way.

"To retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making.
-Otto von Bismarck

Crazbin date unknown

I have never fought Wood Elves, but i got a friend that plays with them, so i think i will play against him in the nearest future. I will play a 1000 pts army... can you give me some advise with what army i should use? i would be very greatfull icon_biggrin

We are the chosen ones! We sacrefice our blood! We kill for honor! We are the holy ones! Our armour is forged with blood! We kill the dragons!

greenlock date unknown

I think people are overestimating the dryads. Because of their large base size the number of attacks they are getting on ogres 40mm bases are not that great. if you got a standard in the ogre unit and got outnumbering you'll average quite nicely with bulls with IF and LA when charged by them. Will post some numbers on the average results of combats later perhaps if people are interested.

cheers

justanotherogre date unknown

Its the toughness 4 and better average ward save that hurts.

Genghis Khan date unknown

I have played against the drycha (all tree army). Very interesting since my had many units of dryads which 2 others were in reserve coming out of the forests. 2 units of 3 treekin, 1 treeman, 2 branchwraith.

Besides the fact that her rolling was amazing, I must admit this army can hurt ogres since they have many attacks in combat.

On my side, I made a fun list to play with since I don't use most of these models; 3 maneaters, slavegiant, hunter w/ sabertusks, 1 butcher, 2 units of 2 leabelchers, 2 units of 3 guts, a unit of 4 guts, unit of 4 bulls, 20 gnoblars.

The hunter and the tusk were put to shame "again". The slavegiant is not that great as I thought it was, for a lesser price I would of added 2 gorgers and also get rid of the maneaters.

What are your suggestions ?

What type of army would you have

Tournament Results

Massacre: 9 Solid Victory: 14 Minor Victory: 6 Draw: 5 Minor Defeat: 3 Solid Defeat: 3 Massacred: 2

Moses the Mercifull date unknown

Come the new rules the puny green elves shall suffer!!!!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHWAHAHA (Now where are you gonna run little elf)

Ska´ du Moses?!

Kyte date unknown

Come the new rules the puny green elves shall suffer!!!!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHWAHAHA (Now where are you gonna run little elf)

Spamming? Is this relavant?

- Kyte

<---3 Pet Gnoblars! These are called Sting, Stewart Copeland and Andy Summers (Gordon Matthew Thomas Sumner, Steward Armstrong Copeland and Andrew James Summers) Together they are: The Police
How to make your own Rhinox Riders - Fixed link!

Tyrant Grog date unknown

Wood Elves are easy to beat, the only problem is Dryads, throw your lone tyrant and bruisers at the unit, you will win combat and they have a low chance of Damaging them, and just engage the main ranged units ASAP and you will clean up.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Minsc date unknown

Wood Elves are easy to beat, the only problem is Dryads

Then you can't have played vs many good Wood Elf players, judging from that statement.

So you find Wardancers, Flanking wild riders, Treekin and Treemen easy?

I Play both wood elves, dark elves, and ogrekingdoms, and from a Woodish point of view, I can say that i I have never lost a game vs Ogre's.
(And woodelves, played correctly, is nigh impossible for a Ogre player to beat. Will be easier in next edition though, due to marchblocking affecting skirmishing units as well)

Just my 2 cent's, might be slightly offtopic though

Minsc will lead with Blade & Boot. Boo will take care of the details. *squeek*

Tyrant Grog date unknown

I play an asrai wood elf army actually, and most of those units you stated will find it very difficult to beat an ogre unit. And if you haven't lost a game to ogres then you must not have played many good ogre players. Wood(hehehe get it?) you mind PMing me you Wood Elf list? Do you use The Lost Glade?

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Tethlis date unknown

Clearly there's a bit of a debate at work here. I've been playing Wood Elves for quite some time, and just recently started up Ogre Kingdoms. Wood Elves excel at destroying medium-to-low toughness, lightly armored opponents. Ogres happen to fall under that category.

In addition, well-played Wood Elves take full advantage of Ogre weaknesses while negating many of their strengths.

For example:
-Ogres are fast, Wood Elves are faster.
-Wood Elf combat units are primarily immune to psychology, and have access to a number of fear-causing magic items and spells. This negates the Ogre fear-causing advantage.
-Like all Elves, high average weaponskill means hitting with ranged weapons and in close combat isn't too difficult.
-Per model and point value, Wood Elves are able to bring more S4 hits to bear than any other army I am familiar with in Warhammer Fantasy, which is disastrous for Ogres.

In addition, a wood elf player who intends to powergame against ogres has access to the spirit sword, which (quoting A Ghost from Asrai.org) "blows through ogres like tissue paper."

Of course, either army handled particularly well or particularly poorly can change the outcome of a game. However, I do believe that Wood Elves have a decisive edge that a good Ogre Tyrant must struggle to overcome.

There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.

Tyrant Grog date unknown

Can I ask what this decisive edge is? Im not being patronising, I just want to know for both my Asrai and Ogres to see what I can do to counter/beat they opposite.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Tethlis date unknown

Can I ask what this decisive edge is? Im not being patronising, I just want to know for both my Asrai and Ogres to see what I can do to counter/beat they opposite.

I was referring to the reasons I mentioned, but I can certainly elaborate a bit. Let's look at the "strengths" of the Ogre army in each phase of the game, and see how the Wood Elves match up. This is merely my humble opinion, and invite any and all respones to that opinion.

Ogre movement versus Wood Elf movement.
One principal strength of the Ogre army is an excellent movement rate. Every Ogre unit, as well as Scraplaunchers and Yhetees, boast a movement rate far above the norm. Wood Elves, however, gain a decisive edge for two reasons: Elven fast cavalry and skirmishers. Both Glade Riders and Wild Riders, as fast cavalry on Elven steeds, are the second fastest regiment type in the game (short of flying regiments and those rare steeds with movement 10, such as mounted Slaanesh demons.) This allows them to easily outmaneuver Ogres, allowing both marchblocking, escape, flank and rear charges. Skirmishers, though not as fast in a direct footrace with Ogres, possess greater maneuverability which allows them to pick/avoid their fights. Ogres excel at smashing ranked enemy formations, but Asrai only possess three regiments with ranks (glade guard, Treekin, Eternal Guard.) Glade Guard are archers, and have no business in close combat anyway. Treekin, falling into the same size category as Ogres, have no real business in multiple ranks. Eternal guard are the only true ranked regiment of a Wood Elf army, but their value in a competitive army is greatly debated.

Magic.
As a new Ogre player, I am unable to go into great depth on the topic of Gut Magic versus the Lore of Athel Loren. Wood Elves have the capability for great dispel potential, however, which is useful versus all opponents. While the typical positive buff spells of Gut Magic remain useful against Wood Elves, braingobbler isn't particularly useful since most Wood Elf units are immune to psychology. Toothcracker is quite useful, however, as the entire army is vulnerable to magic missiles. Many hard-hitting Elven combat units possess magic resistance, however, which helps guarantee dispels against the low casting value of Gut Magic. As for the Lore of Athel Loren, treesinging can cause true problems for an ogre players. Given that ogre units maneuver as regiments, an inconvenient patch of woods can really hinder an ogre advance. In addition, the Lore can render a unit invulnerable to leadbelcher cannons, produce additional movement, make a unit cause fear or terror, or give them regeneration. Each of these is problematic for Ogres.

Shooting.
Leadbelchers versus Glade Guard. Due to the lack of armor, small unit size (if facing an MSU arm) and low toughness of Elves, leadbelcher cannons can wreak tremendous havoc. The relative accuracy of the leadbelcher cannons (ignoring penalties for movement, range, etc.) also help score hits on elusive skirmishing or soft-covered units hiding in woods. Glade Guard, however, excel against lightly armored enemy regiments. Even with toughness 4, however, Ogres are still vulnerable to accurate longbow fire. Since Glade Guard longbows get a strength bonus at short range, they can punch holes in units of Bulls and Guts before they manage a charge. As with all armies with capable shooting, gnoblar screens are very useful. Let's not forgot the terrifying Hail of Doom Arrow, which has the capability to cripple a unit of MSU ogres in one round of shooting.

Assault.
Ah yes, the big question. It's true that any ogre unit, from bulls to belchers to ironguts, can decimate Wood Elf unit on the charge. Not just a few units in particular, but any unit. Dryads are tough, but not impossible. Unfortunately, actually gaining that charge is extremely difficult as noted above in the section covering movement. To the advantage of the ogres, Wood Elves have about as much static combat resolution as Ogres, though Ogres tend to outnumber in a combat. Fear cannot be counted on to break Elven units, but Ogres shouldn't have any difficulty generating enough wounds to win a combat. Unfortunately, charging wardancers, dryads and wild riders don't often allow many return attacks on an Ogre unit. Ranked units of gnoblar fighters are wonderful, as their +4 static resolution for three ranks and outnumber can help a combat greatly. A clever Ogre general will have to utilize every trick available to him to guarantee the charge, because a clever Wood Elf general knows he has little chance if his army receives the charge.

A note on Tyrants and Bruisers: they're untouchable in a Wood Elf army. The only unit that can go toe-to-toe against either character in terms of statline is a Treeman, Treeman Ancient, or Dragon Lord. Give the Tyrant or Bruiser a Tenderizer, and either problem can be solved with a little luck. With the exception of the Dragon Lord (not a frequent choice in armies of 2000-2250 points) then there is nothing that can stand before a Tyrant. Shield him from shooting, and then unleash him on your enemy unit of choice. He has the capability to single-handedly win the game for your army.

A note on charging Elves: Elves rarely win wars of attrition, so holding up against an Elven charge is useful. If your unit can hold against an elven charge using general's leadership, BsB, Fistful of Laurels, Kineater, etc. then life gets much easier. Counterattack with a supporting unit and the combat is yours.

One final note: This post is not, by an means, a criticism of the Ogre army. It's a fact of the game that some armies face great difficulty against other armies, and Ogres versus Wood Elves are one of those matchups.

There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.

Mutter date unknown

Excellent analysis, Tethlis, and I agree with you point for point. I have (for obvious reasons) played WE for much longer than ogres, and it does tend to be an uphill battle.
In a thread in the Feeding Ground, we recently did an analysis of various tree spirits against some of our guys, and frankly, it doesn't look too good. Treekin are especially devastating, but I totally agree with the point being made about the tyrant: he can turn the battle, especially against treekin and treemen, the tenderizer is just pure murder.

Cheers, Mutter

Olaf Sunsmasher date unknown

Well..I theres this one all tree army (not tree spirit...just trees.)

The list is something like this.

2000pts

Drycha

Branchwraith(might be two)

3x8 dryads

5 treekin

2 treemen.

He sits his two treemen and a dryad unit in his free trees and moves the trees up the field, carrying the treemen with it. You can't hurt them lest be horribly crushed by strangle roots and crap. So his hammer is untouched and he messes with you with his dryads.

What to do!?!?!?

Thunderfist date unknown

I have currently lost against wood elves twice now, with no hope of winning.
It is a mostly forest-spirit army, with lots of dryads etc (1500pts).
I can't really find any major flaw with my tactics. This was what I tried:

1st game: (note, used the same army twice, 2x butcher, 2x of 2 belchers, mostly "normal ogres (IE and bull))

Tried the "go forwards, but avoid to be flanked" tactic. As far as i know, I was never flanked this battle.
However, It is impossible to charge any skirmish/monster, as either they charge you, or if you are around 11" away, the move back 2 inch (or to the sides, so you can't wheel to get them).

Treekin? Only unit he had that moves like a normal unit. However, you cannot charge these when facing a relativly good player, as he can move back 2,5" (effectivly moving you out of charge range), or charge you (if he is within 10"). Try to calculate what happens when 4x treekin (he only had 3x, though it still spelled the doom of the ogres) smashes into ogre lines (bull/Irongut). The treeman is supa-strong, as he can cast spells/magic AND eat ogres for breakfast in combat (if the WE player is doing right, he will get the charge, although he wont win against character units, and might have som problems with a full gut unit, he will beat most units).
I saw someone saying that you could counter him with Yhetees... How?
Yheetes: 9 attacks 4,5 hits, 1,5wounds(s5 t6) 1wound (3+as = 5+as) no ward
Treeman: 5 attacks 2,5 hits (ice stuff). little more than 2 wounds.
The yheetes also fear the treeman, and the treeman has 6 wounds. Even if you have 4 yheetes (only 3 will get to strike anyway) he will still win in the end (when his unit strenght is higher)
Of course, you CAN get lucky and get an extra wound or so, but so can he, AND he can use magic and strangle-root attack to end the life of a poor yheete (and three of then will fail to kill him)
But still, they are probably the best unit to kill him with, even though they are not good at it.

I have to go to work soon (starting 02:20), so ill continue tomorrow, sorry for any wierd spelling or stuff, really tired icon_wink

.

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Duxmortem date unknown

I was referring to the reasons I mentioned, but I can certainly elaborate a bit. Let's look at the "strengths" of the Ogre army in each phase of the game, and see how the Wood Elves match up. This is merely my humble opinion, and invite any and all respones to that opinion.

I disagree with you strongly, but let's go over each point individually

Ogre movement versus Wood Elf movement.
One principal strength of the Ogre army is an excellent movement rate. Every Ogre unit, as well as Scraplaunchers and Yhetees, boast a movement rate far above the norm. Wood Elves, however, gain a decisive edge for two reasons: Elven fast cavalry and skirmishers. Both Glade Riders and Wild Riders, as fast cavalry on Elven steeds, are the second fastest regiment type in the game (short of flying regiments and those rare steeds with movement 10, such as mounted Slaanesh demons.) This allows them to easily outmaneuver Ogres, allowing both marchblocking, escape, flank and rear charges. Skirmishers, though not as fast in a direct footrace with Ogres, possess greater maneuverability which allows them to pick/avoid their fights. Ogres excel at smashing ranked enemy formations, but Asrai only possess three regiments with ranks (glade guard, Treekin, Eternal Guard.) Glade Guard are archers, and have no business in close combat anyway. Treekin, falling into the same size category as Ogres, have no real business in multiple ranks. Eternal guard are the only true ranked regiment of a Wood Elf army, but their value in a competitive army is greatly debated.

Your arguments are selective and partly plain wrong. Sure, glade riders can usually get a flank chanrge on ogres (I'm only agreeing here for arguments sake, because against an msu ogre army, you can forget about getting any flank charge off), but even then they will only generate CR for the ogre player because they don't hit hard enough to make a real impact and are so fragile that they make easy CR for ogres. Ranked units are NOT the easiest thing for ogres to break. In fact, units that don't have such advantages either are only easier to beat for ogres as they will usually outfight any asrai unit (bulls with la+if will even take on a wardancer charge and win CR if there's no character in the wardancer unit) 1-1 AND will usually outnumber them. Skirmishers are no longer the fast gits they were in 6th so i think your arguments are flawed there (though I do agree that the fact that they are more 'fluid' as a unit gives more movement options)

Magic.
As a new Ogre player, I am unable to go into great depth on the topic of Gut Magic versus the Lore of Athel Loren. Wood Elves have the capability for great dispel potential, however, which is useful versus all opponents. While the typical positive buff spells of Gut Magic remain useful against Wood Elves, braingobbler isn't particularly useful since most Wood Elf units are immune to psychology. Toothcracker is quite useful, however, as the entire army is vulnerable to magic missiles. Many hard-hitting Elven combat units possess magic resistance, however, which helps guarantee dispels against the low casting value of Gut Magic. As for the Lore of Athel Loren, treesinging can cause true problems for an ogre players. Given that ogre units maneuver as regiments, an inconvenient patch of woods can really hinder an ogre advance. In addition, the Lore can render a unit invulnerable to leadbelcher cannons, produce additional movement, make a unit cause fear or terror, or give them regeneration. Each of these is problematic for Ogres.

Again, you are obviously biased towards wood elfs (I'm guessing yer a wood elf player who also plays OK, not the other way around). Just like you managed to find a usefullness for every athel loren spell against ogres, EVERY single ogre spell is usefull against woodies (yes, even braingnobler). The difference is that you will probably get off 1-2 spells with a single mage (before dispelling and such), while a butcher can easily get off 3-4. Over-all wood elf magic is not something people are generally very afraid of, nor do they need to be IMO

Shooting.
Leadbelchers versus Glade Guard. Due to the lack of armor, small unit size (if facing an MSU arm) and low toughness of Elves, leadbelcher cannons can wreak tremendous havoc. The relative accuracy of the leadbelcher cannons (ignoring penalties for movement, range, etc.) also help score hits on elusive skirmishing or soft-covered units hiding in woods. Glade Guard, however, excel against lightly armored enemy regiments. Even with toughness 4, however, Ogres are still vulnerable to accurate longbow fire. Since Glade Guard longbows get a strength bonus at short range, they can punch holes in units of Bulls and Guts before they manage a charge. As with all armies with capable shooting, gnoblar screens are very useful. Let's not forgot the terrifying Hail of Doom Arrow, which has the capability to cripple a unit of MSU ogres in one round of shooting.

Really, all of your arguments here are flawed. You're little theory only work against MSU units,which are so terribly good because they are EXPENDABLE. It doesn't matter if you shoot 1 or 2 units. There are plenty of magic items and such to keep your army from panicking, and to be honest I highly doubt you will be able to take out anything important. Larger units won't panic and shooting 1 or 2 ogres from them really doesn't impact that CC ability that much. Shooting at leadbelchers is the most retarded thing you can do, but everyone I've played so far does it. LB's really aren't that good, but people keep shooting at your nice 110 point missile screens no matter where you place them. Add in a nice toothcracker spell and you will nullify most enemy shooting. From all my experience with ogres so far, i can say shooting isn't as much of a problem for them as you'd think on paper.

Assault.
Ah yes, the big question. It's true that any ogre unit, from bulls to belchers to ironguts, can decimate Wood Elf unit on the charge. Not just a few units in particular, but any unit. Dryads are tough, but not impossible. Unfortunately, actually gaining that charge is extremely difficult as noted above in the section covering movement. To the advantage of the ogres, Wood Elves have about as much static combat resolution as Ogres, though Ogres tend to outnumber in a combat. Fear cannot be counted on to break Elven units, but Ogres shouldn't have any difficulty generating enough wounds to win a combat. Unfortunately, charging wardancers, dryads and wild riders don't often allow many return attacks on an Ogre unit. Ranked units of gnoblar fighters are wonderful, as their +4 static resolution for three ranks and outnumber can help a combat greatly. A clever Ogre general will have to utilize every trick available to him to guarantee the charge, because a clever Wood Elf general knows he has little chance if his army receives the charge.

Well, first off you can forget about charging any unit with a combat character. You will NEVER be able to kill it in CC and it will munch right through your units. Even without a character, I think the units you mentioned will still have a hard time against ogres even if you get the charge. The only exception would be wardancers (especially if they have a wardancer character in them).

A note on Tyrants and Bruisers: they're untouchable in a Wood Elf army. The only unit that can go toe-to-toe against either character in terms of statline is a Treeman, Treeman Ancient, or Dragon Lord. Give the Tyrant or Bruiser a Tenderizer, and either problem can be solved with a little luck. With the exception of the Dragon Lord (not a frequent choice in armies of 2000-2250 points) then there is nothing that can stand before a Tyrant. Shield him from shooting, and then unleash him on your enemy unit of choice. He has the capability to single-handedly win the game for your army.

A note on charging Elves: Elves rarely win wars of attrition, so holding up against an Elven charge is useful. If your unit can hold against an elven charge using general's leadership, BsB, Fistful of Laurels, Kineater, etc. then life gets much easier. Counterattack with a supporting unit and the combat is yours.

One final note: This post is not, by an means, a criticism of the Ogre army. It's a fact of the game that some armies face great difficulty against other armies, and Ogres versus Wood Elves are one of those matchups.

Like I said, I disagree with you there. I think woodies are very suitable to play against with ogres. They have no ranks to speak of and most units will be completely demolished if they go up against an ogre unit 1-on-1, even if they get the charge. I can see ogre magic doing a lot of pain against woodies, and the great thing about it is that you don't even have to give up combat capability for it; give your butcher a nice siegebreaker and he can smash the shit out of most woodies, where as woodies will serious pay in terms of fighty heroes if they take lots of magic.

Over-all, I'd say to win with woodies against ogres you'd simply have to be a better general. 'Cause a good ogre general will demolish any elf army anytime. Just minimize the strenghts elfs hav over ogres and they don't stand a chance. This is all discounting the horrible dragon rider woodies can produce ofcourse, I wouldn't like to play against that one.

Tethlis 07 Sep 2006

Can I ask what this decisive edge is? Im not being patronising, I just want to know for both my Asrai and Ogres to see what I can do to counter/beat they opposite.

I was referring to the reasons I mentioned, but I can certainly elaborate a bit. Let's look at the "strengths" of the Ogre army in each phase of the game, and see how the Wood Elves match up. This is merely my humble opinion, and invite any and all respones to that opinion.

Ogre movement versus Wood Elf movement.
One principal strength of the Ogre army is an excellent movement rate. Every Ogre unit, as well as Scraplaunchers and Yhetees, boast a movement rate far above the norm. Wood Elves, however, gain a decisive edge for two reasons: Elven fast cavalry and skirmishers. Both Glade Riders and Wild Riders, as fast cavalry on Elven steeds, are the second fastest regiment type in the game (short of flying regiments and those rare steeds with movement 10, such as mounted Slaanesh demons.) This allows them to easily outmaneuver Ogres, allowing both marchblocking, escape, flank and rear charges. Skirmishers, though not as fast in a direct footrace with Ogres, possess greater maneuverability which allows them to pick/avoid their fights. Ogres excel at smashing ranked enemy formations, but Asrai only possess three regiments with ranks (glade guard, Treekin, Eternal Guard.) Glade Guard are archers, and have no business in close combat anyway. Treekin, falling into the same size category as Ogres, have no real business in multiple ranks. Eternal guard are the only true ranked regiment of a Wood Elf army, but their value in a competitive army is greatly debated.

Magic.
As a new Ogre player, I am unable to go into great depth on the topic of Gut Magic versus the Lore of Athel Loren. Wood Elves have the capability for great dispel potential, however, which is useful versus all opponents. While the typical positive buff spells of Gut Magic remain useful against Wood Elves, braingobbler isn't particularly useful since most Wood Elf units are immune to psychology. Toothcracker is quite useful, however, as the entire army is vulnerable to magic missiles. Many hard-hitting Elven combat units possess magic resistance, however, which helps guarantee dispels against the low casting value of Gut Magic. As for the Lore of Athel Loren, treesinging can cause true problems for an ogre players. Given that ogre units maneuver as regiments, an inconvenient patch of woods can really hinder an ogre advance. In addition, the Lore can render a unit invulnerable to leadbelcher cannons, produce additional movement, make a unit cause fear or terror, or give them regeneration. Each of these is problematic for Ogres.

Shooting.
Leadbelchers versus Glade Guard. Due to the lack of armor, small unit size (if facing an MSU arm) and low toughness of Elves, leadbelcher cannons can wreak tremendous havoc. The relative accuracy of the leadbelcher cannons (ignoring penalties for movement, range, etc.) also help score hits on elusive skirmishing or soft-covered units hiding in woods. Glade Guard, however, excel against lightly armored enemy regiments. Even with toughness 4, however, Ogres are still vulnerable to accurate longbow fire. Since Glade Guard longbows get a strength bonus at short range, they can punch holes in units of Bulls and Guts before they manage a charge. As with all armies with capable shooting, gnoblar screens are very useful. Let's not forgot the terrifying Hail of Doom Arrow, which has the capability to cripple a unit of MSU ogres in one round of shooting.

Assault.
Ah yes, the big question. It's true that any ogre unit, from bulls to belchers to ironguts, can decimate Wood Elf unit on the charge. Not just a few units in particular, but any unit. Dryads are tough, but not impossible. Unfortunately, actually gaining that charge is extremely difficult as noted above in the section covering movement. To the advantage of the ogres, Wood Elves have about as much static combat resolution as Ogres, though Ogres tend to outnumber in a combat. Fear cannot be counted on to break Elven units, but Ogres shouldn't have any difficulty generating enough wounds to win a combat. Unfortunately, charging wardancers, dryads and wild riders don't often allow many return attacks on an Ogre unit. Ranked units of gnoblar fighters are wonderful, as their +4 static resolution for three ranks and outnumber can help a combat greatly. A clever Ogre general will have to utilize every trick available to him to guarantee the charge, because a clever Wood Elf general knows he has little chance if his army receives the charge.

A note on Tyrants and Bruisers: they're untouchable in a Wood Elf army. The only unit that can go toe-to-toe against either character in terms of statline is a Treeman, Treeman Ancient, or Dragon Lord. Give the Tyrant or Bruiser a Tenderizer, and either problem can be solved with a little luck. With the exception of the Dragon Lord (not a frequent choice in armies of 2000-2250 points) then there is nothing that can stand before a Tyrant. Shield him from shooting, and then unleash him on your enemy unit of choice. He has the capability to single-handedly win the game for your army.

A note on charging Elves: Elves rarely win wars of attrition, so holding up against an Elven charge is useful. If your unit can hold against an elven charge using general's leadership, BsB, Fistful of Laurels, Kineater, etc. then life gets much easier. Counterattack with a supporting unit and the combat is yours.

One final note: This post is not, by an means, a criticism of the Ogre army. It's a fact of the game that some armies face great difficulty against other armies, and Ogres versus Wood Elves are one of those matchups.

There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.

Mutter 29 Sep 2006

Excellent analysis, Tethlis, and I agree with you point for point. I have (for obvious reasons) played WE for much longer than ogres, and it does tend to be an uphill battle.
In a thread in the Feeding Ground, we recently did an analysis of various tree spirits against some of our guys, and frankly, it doesn't look too good. Treekin are especially devastating, but I totally agree with the point being made about the tyrant: he can turn the battle, especially against treekin and treemen, the tenderizer is just pure murder.

Cheers, Mutter

Olaf Sunsmasher 12 Oct 2006

Well..I theres this one all tree army (not tree spirit...just trees.)

The list is something like this.

2000pts

Drycha

Branchwraith(might be two)

3x8 dryads

5 treekin

2 treemen.

He sits his two treemen and a dryad unit in his free trees and moves the trees up the field, carrying the treemen with it. You can't hurt them lest be horribly crushed by strangle roots and crap. So his hammer is untouched and he messes with you with his dryads.

What to do!?!?!?

Thunderfist 13 Oct 2006

I have currently lost against wood elves twice now, with no hope of winning.
It is a mostly forest-spirit army, with lots of dryads etc (1500pts).
I can't really find any major flaw with my tactics. This was what I tried:

1st game: (note, used the same army twice, 2x butcher, 2x of 2 belchers, mostly "normal ogres (IE and bull))

Tried the "go forwards, but avoid to be flanked" tactic. As far as i know, I was never flanked this battle.
However, It is impossible to charge any skirmish/monster, as either they charge you, or if you are around 11" away, the move back 2 inch (or to the sides, so you can't wheel to get them).

Treekin? Only unit he had that moves like a normal unit. However, you cannot charge these when facing a relativly good player, as he can move back 2,5" (effectivly moving you out of charge range), or charge you (if he is within 10"). Try to calculate what happens when 4x treekin (he only had 3x, though it still spelled the doom of the ogres) smashes into ogre lines (bull/Irongut). The treeman is supa-strong, as he can cast spells/magic AND eat ogres for breakfast in combat (if the WE player is doing right, he will get the charge, although he wont win against character units, and might have som problems with a full gut unit, he will beat most units).
I saw someone saying that you could counter him with Yhetees... How?
Yheetes: 9 attacks 4,5 hits, 1,5wounds(s5 t6) 1wound (3+as = 5+as) no ward
Treeman: 5 attacks 2,5 hits (ice stuff). little more than 2 wounds.
The yheetes also fear the treeman, and the treeman has 6 wounds. Even if you have 4 yheetes (only 3 will get to strike anyway) he will still win in the end (when his unit strenght is higher)
Of course, you CAN get lucky and get an extra wound or so, but so can he, AND he can use magic and strangle-root attack to end the life of a poor yheete (and three of then will fail to kill him)
But still, they are probably the best unit to kill him with, even though they are not good at it.

I have to go to work soon (starting 02:20), so ill continue tomorrow, sorry for any wierd spelling or stuff, really tired

.

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Duxmortem 14 Oct 2006

I was referring to the reasons I mentioned, but I can certainly elaborate a bit. Let's look at the "strengths" of the Ogre army in each phase of the game, and see how the Wood Elves match up. This is merely my humble opinion, and invite any and all respones to that opinion.

I disagree with you strongly, but let's go over each point individually

Ogre movement versus Wood Elf movement.
One principal strength of the Ogre army is an excellent movement rate. Every Ogre unit, as well as Scraplaunchers and Yhetees, boast a movement rate far above the norm. Wood Elves, however, gain a decisive edge for two reasons: Elven fast cavalry and skirmishers. Both Glade Riders and Wild Riders, as fast cavalry on Elven steeds, are the second fastest regiment type in the game (short of flying regiments and those rare steeds with movement 10, such as mounted Slaanesh demons.) This allows them to easily outmaneuver Ogres, allowing both marchblocking, escape, flank and rear charges. Skirmishers, though not as fast in a direct footrace with Ogres, possess greater maneuverability which allows them to pick/avoid their fights. Ogres excel at smashing ranked enemy formations, but Asrai only possess three regiments with ranks (glade guard, Treekin, Eternal Guard.) Glade Guard are archers, and have no business in close combat anyway. Treekin, falling into the same size category as Ogres, have no real business in multiple ranks. Eternal guard are the only true ranked regiment of a Wood Elf army, but their value in a competitive army is greatly debated.

Your arguments are selective and partly plain wrong. Sure, glade riders can usually get a flank chanrge on ogres (I'm only agreeing here for arguments sake, because against an msu ogre army, you can forget about getting any flank charge off), but even then they will only generate CR for the ogre player because they don't hit hard enough to make a real impact and are so fragile that they make easy CR for ogres. Ranked units are NOT the easiest thing for ogres to break. In fact, units that don't have such advantages either are only easier to beat for ogres as they will usually outfight any asrai unit (bulls with la+if will even take on a wardancer charge and win CR if there's no character in the wardancer unit) 1-1 AND will usually outnumber them. Skirmishers are no longer the fast gits they were in 6th so i think your arguments are flawed there (though I do agree that the fact that they are more 'fluid' as a unit gives more movement options)

Magic.
As a new Ogre player, I am unable to go into great depth on the topic of Gut Magic versus the Lore of Athel Loren. Wood Elves have the capability for great dispel potential, however, which is useful versus all opponents. While the typical positive buff spells of Gut Magic remain useful against Wood Elves, braingobbler isn't particularly useful since most Wood Elf units are immune to psychology. Toothcracker is quite useful, however, as the entire army is vulnerable to magic missiles. Many hard-hitting Elven combat units possess magic resistance, however, which helps guarantee dispels against the low casting value of Gut Magic. As for the Lore of Athel Loren, treesinging can cause true problems for an ogre players. Given that ogre units maneuver as regiments, an inconvenient patch of woods can really hinder an ogre advance. In addition, the Lore can render a unit invulnerable to leadbelcher cannons, produce additional movement, make a unit cause fear or terror, or give them regeneration. Each of these is problematic for Ogres.

Again, you are obviously biased towards wood elfs (I'm guessing yer a wood elf player who also plays OK, not the other way around). Just like you managed to find a usefullness for every athel loren spell against ogres, EVERY single ogre spell is usefull against woodies (yes, even braingnobler). The difference is that you will probably get off 1-2 spells with a single mage (before dispelling and such), while a butcher can easily get off 3-4. Over-all wood elf magic is not something people are generally very afraid of, nor do they need to be IMO

Shooting.
Leadbelchers versus Glade Guard. Due to the lack of armor, small unit size (if facing an MSU arm) and low toughness of Elves, leadbelcher cannons can wreak tremendous havoc. The relative accuracy of the leadbelcher cannons (ignoring penalties for movement, range, etc.) also help score hits on elusive skirmishing or soft-covered units hiding in woods. Glade Guard, however, excel against lightly armored enemy regiments. Even with toughness 4, however, Ogres are still vulnerable to accurate longbow fire. Since Glade Guard longbows get a strength bonus at short range, they can punch holes in units of Bulls and Guts before they manage a charge. As with all armies with capable shooting, gnoblar screens are very useful. Let's not forgot the terrifying Hail of Doom Arrow, which has the capability to cripple a unit of MSU ogres in one round of shooting.

Really, all of your arguments here are flawed. You're little theory only work against MSU units,which are so terribly good because they are EXPENDABLE. It doesn't matter if you shoot 1 or 2 units. There are plenty of magic items and such to keep your army from panicking, and to be honest I highly doubt you will be able to take out anything important. Larger units won't panic and shooting 1 or 2 ogres from them really doesn't impact that CC ability that much. Shooting at leadbelchers is the most retarded thing you can do, but everyone I've played so far does it. LB's really aren't that good, but people keep shooting at your nice 110 point missile screens no matter where you place them. Add in a nice toothcracker spell and you will nullify most enemy shooting. From all my experience with ogres so far, i can say shooting isn't as much of a problem for them as you'd think on paper.

Assault.
Ah yes, the big question. It's true that any ogre unit, from bulls to belchers to ironguts, can decimate Wood Elf unit on the charge. Not just a few units in particular, but any unit. Dryads are tough, but not impossible. Unfortunately, actually gaining that charge is extremely difficult as noted above in the section covering movement. To the advantage of the ogres, Wood Elves have about as much static combat resolution as Ogres, though Ogres tend to outnumber in a combat. Fear cannot be counted on to break Elven units, but Ogres shouldn't have any difficulty generating enough wounds to win a combat. Unfortunately, charging wardancers, dryads and wild riders don't often allow many return attacks on an Ogre unit. Ranked units of gnoblar fighters are wonderful, as their +4 static resolution for three ranks and outnumber can help a combat greatly. A clever Ogre general will have to utilize every trick available to him to guarantee the charge, because a clever Wood Elf general knows he has little chance if his army receives the charge.

Well, first off you can forget about charging any unit with a combat character. You will NEVER be able to kill it in CC and it will munch right through your units. Even without a character, I think the units you mentioned will still have a hard time against ogres even if you get the charge. The only exception would be wardancers (especially if they have a wardancer character in them).

A note on Tyrants and Bruisers: they're untouchable in a Wood Elf army. The only unit that can go toe-to-toe against either character in terms of statline is a Treeman, Treeman Ancient, or Dragon Lord. Give the Tyrant or Bruiser a Tenderizer, and either problem can be solved with a little luck. With the exception of the Dragon Lord (not a frequent choice in armies of 2000-2250 points) then there is nothing that can stand before a Tyrant. Shield him from shooting, and then unleash him on your enemy unit of choice. He has the capability to single-handedly win the game for your army.

A note on charging Elves: Elves rarely win wars of attrition, so holding up against an Elven charge is useful. If your unit can hold against an elven charge using general's leadership, BsB, Fistful of Laurels, Kineater, etc. then life gets much easier. Counterattack with a supporting unit and the combat is yours.

One final note: This post is not, by an means, a criticism of the Ogre army. It's a fact of the game that some armies face great difficulty against other armies, and Ogres versus Wood Elves are one of those matchups.

Like I said, I disagree with you there. I think woodies are very suitable to play against with ogres. They have no ranks to speak of and most units will be completely demolished if they go up against an ogre unit 1-on-1, even if they get the charge. I can see ogre magic doing a lot of pain against woodies, and the great thing about it is that you don't even have to give up combat capability for it; give your butcher a nice siegebreaker and he can smash the shit out of most woodies, where as woodies will serious pay in terms of fighty heroes if they take lots of magic.

Over-all, I'd say to win with woodies against ogres you'd simply have to be a better general. 'Cause a good ogre general will demolish any elf army anytime. Just minimize the strenghts elfs hav over ogres and they don't stand a chance. This is all discounting the horrible dragon rider woodies can produce ofcourse, I wouldn't like to play against that one.

Thunderfist 14 Oct 2006

Like I said, I disagree with you there. I think woodies are very suitable to play against with ogres. They have no ranks to speak of and most units will be completely demolished if they go up against an ogre unit 1-on-1, even if they get the charge. I can see ogre magic doing a lot of pain against woodies, and the great thing about it is that you don't even have to give up combat capability for it; give your butcher a nice siegebreaker and he can smash the shit out of most woodies, where as woodies will serious pay in terms of fighty heroes if they take lots of magic.

Over-all, I'd say to win with woodies against ogres you'd simply have to be a better general. 'Cause a good ogre general will demolish any elf army anytime. Just minimize the strenghts elfs hav over ogres and they don't stand a chance. This is all discounting the horrible dragon rider woodies can produce ofcourse, I wouldn't like to play against that one.

You were wrong at almost every point.

Instead of stating wierd stuff like "(bulls with la+if will even take on a wardancer charge and win CR if there's no character in the wardancer unit)", I have a nice little calculator for you here: http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/unit_combat.php. (note, use wardancers as attackers

Have you ever played against a wood elf army with the new rules? Even the dryads will often beat a full unit of bulls (and EASILY a 3-man MSU bull unit). Check the calculator if you do not believe me.

Sure, I do not really fear glade guard, nor do I fear glade riders. But it is NOT the asrai units that are the problem. It is the ones with the forest spirit rule.

Play some games against an able wood elf player that uses Forest Spirits, and come back.
If you somehow WIN, then you are either:
1. Not playing with much terrain (no woods means crappy WE magic, even though they get an extra wood).
2. You are incredibly lucky.
3. You are facing a bad enemy general.

Your theory and actual gameplay is flawed. A unit of 10 dryads (120 points), will smash an Irongut unit of 4 (perhaps 5 aswell). The only thing that can really kill those spirits of the forest, are the heroes.
You are also incorrect about the flank charge. Even if not playing an MSU army, you can always use your characters to prevent flanking (move them so you block the charge, they won't dare to attack crazy ogre characters)

Cheers

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Minsc 15 Oct 2006

Not trying to start a flamewar, but just have to point something out:

Your opinions are also a bit tad biased, Duxmortem.

Imto Thetlis (sp?) was right on mostly everything he said, and Wood Elves ARE though for Ogres.

Tyrant Grog 16 Oct 2006

I think the Woodies are a nice army.(I have woodies myself) But ogres will eat them alive everytime. A tyrant will eat a treeman and treekin, Ironguts will eat dryads and bulls will eat everyhting else(gnoblars are practically useless except for capturing table quarters) and thats all you need, butchers will just 2D6 Str2 hit the archers and E.Guard, and the glade riders are nothing to be afraid of and vs Ogres, waywatchers are just expensive glade guard.

I would have no worries againt anything short of all forest spirit army.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Olaf Sunsmasher 16 Oct 2006

I would have no worries againt anything short of all forest spirit army.

So does anyone have any advice against this kind of army or am I going to be doomed whenever it's brought out against me.

Aliasara 16 Oct 2006

Dear Thunderfist,

How, please, and in what world will a unit of 10 dryads be able to easily smash 4-5 Ironguts? Do you have magical Super dryads with Str.5 on the charge?
I am sorry that I am discounting the Calculator argument, but statistics do not serve well for WHFB since there are way too many factors (Magic, e.g.) that could influence that particular battle.

For Example:
I personally play 3 Butchers in my 2250 army and boy I tell you, that Gut magic won't be dispelled by no WE after turn 2 at the latest anymore. IF your dryads get the charge I am so 100% Sure that there will be lying a Trollguts spell or something similar on the Guts. Changes the math, no? So much said for my love for statistics or "Mathhammer".

The Wood Elves, like any army, are nowhere near impossible to beat for an OK army. It is hard but it really can be done. Here are some points that might prove helpful.

- Leadbelchers make for good flank protection. Keep in mind that they have an effective range of 18" with their guns. Sadly they will most likely be sacrificial units, but they are scary enough for the pansies that he has to deal (shoot most likely) with them OR let them limit his mobility on your flank. (Yes my Dear, move them Wild Riders up for a flank charge...BOOOM Har Har Har....). Just don't get mad when a silly, bony looking fella in a green dress walks out of a patch of woods and says: I SHOOT YE ARROW OF DOOM AT THEEE! after wich one unit of leadbelchers lies pincusioned as fertilizer on the forest floor.

- Denial of magic mobility: Yes he can move his trees around AND THE UNITS of his that are in them. You do not want that, since he will try to part your army and finish them piecemeal. DENY him a successful Magic Phase ESPECIALLY when he is trying to gain the upper hand on you movementwise.

- Don't go into the Woods.

- Bring some Gnoblars along. They are great for taking charges and arrows in the belly. They do great vs WE as screens and as annoyance and probably death to Archer units. Pointy things in Elven faces make every Tyrant happy...

- Keep your stuff together: DO NOT LET HIM PART YOUR ARMY. Ever. Yes he can probably dictate the charges to a certain extent. Make sure that there is something left to countercharge HIM once the dust settles. Draw him out of the woods with baiting or really threatening units. Buffed Maneaters are great for taking a charge of Treekin/Treemen/Dryads/Riders anchoring them firmly in place while the rest of the army moves in for the kill (if the maneaters alone can't manage...) for example. Create Charge opportunities for him but let him charge the units YOU want him to charge, not the other way round.

- The Tyrant will rip everyone in the WE army a new one, unless you are especially unlucky at rolling.... Use him well and against worthy targets. A Treeman would be good. Or Treekin. Or a pansie that hinks he is invulnerable just cuz he sits on a huge, green scaly thing. Target the Pansie and watch the Dragon go mad...Hurr, Hurr...

- Let a neutral person set up the battlefield. 2 starting pieces of wood (None of which may cover more than one half of the table) are more than ample. Refuse to play the person if the board is set up in a most biased way.

- Don't go for the Archers with Ogres, let the Gnoblars or Belchers try finish them. Point your hammer units at his Treekin, they mustn't flee from a charge

. Use that to your advantage. Do NOT think the WE frail in battle, though. A unit of 3 Bulls will probably not succeed vs Dryads or Treekin or Wardancers. A Unit of 4 Guts most probably will, though. Unless it is the Wardancers.

- Wardancers: Shoot them if you somehow can. Decimate them before you go hand to hand with them. They are really terrible foes and should not be taken lightly.

- Hunters and Yhetees won't do to well vs WE. Best leave them out of your army.

Pooohhh.... That took a long time to write. These are my 2 cents, for now. Feel free to disagree. And Thunderfist: Before you tell people that they are babbling, do not do so yourself. I mean, Duxmortem might have been a little too optimistic about the CC prowess of his bulls but although you might be a decent general and very much in love with the treehugging little hippies there are people that actually know how to play OK out there and have managaed to *gasp* beat the hippies on an even field ith equally "skilled" generals facing off.
I realy do think that the WE have some advantages in the MU but it is not nearly as dramatic as you or Thethlis have put it. I wish you best of luck beating the pansies, you will find them rather bony, though

.

Cheers,

Aliasara

Grimclaw 17 Oct 2006

I agree with Alisara, im not much of a fan of "mathhammer", its a game of dice and that which is statistically correct is seldom seen on the battlefield. Units are very very very very seldom paired with eachother in CC without any other factors at all in play (magic etc.) and that ofc goes both ways. Im gonna play a friends WE soon so well see how that goes but im actually not too optimistic about my chances... Pesky Wardancers scaring the holymoly out of me.

Duxmortem 17 Oct 2006

"You were wrong at almost every
point."

Nice little red line there. Sadly though the layout of your post is the only thing worth praising about it. Im actually wondering if yer post wouldn't be considered flaming. When you read my post again, you will see I'm not trying to attack the person but only the biase in the post. When I then get comments that if I ever win against woodies it must be against a bad general, i consider that flaming, especially since you chose to ignore the actual arguments presented in my post. So I will ask you nicely to stop flaming.

And thunderfist: actually, a good friend of mine plays wood elfs, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't believe me on the wardancers vs bulls, try it out yourself in an actual battle, not a calculator. Because not only are you using a mathematecally incorrect procedure to calculate what will happen (averages will never give an accurate view of the cc prowess of a unit...try calculating the average chance ofdoing a set number of wounds against a set adversary, that will be much coser to what usually happens in a battle), like aliasara said gut magic can severely influence the battle. I've found bulls with a 4+save are consistenly underjudged on this forum. It might just be that I'm especially lucky with them so far, but I've found there's not a lot that can break them if you give 'm a banner and character. A wardancer group might get 8 guys into contact. The chance of killing 2 ogres on the charge then is actually below 50%. And you NEED to kill 2 ogres to win CR. It only works with a character in the unit ofcourse, I dunno if I mentioned that, otherwise I apologize for that. Without character the statistics are way different.

I know I'm biased when it comes to the bulls with la+if, but the rest of my post was unbiased as far as I;m concerned. The reason I'm biased about the bulls is because as an (originally) elf player there's nothing more scary for me then ogres with a decent saving throw.

"You are also incorrect about the flank charge. Even if not playing an MSU army, you can always use your characters to prevent flanking (move them so you block the charge, they won't dare to attack crazy ogre characters)"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean there. I was saying that against an msu ogre army you will find it difficult to get off flank charges. But really my point about the flank charges with glade riders was that it will actually help the ogre player in most cases when you flank charge with them because they are easy kills and thus easy CR.

Thunderfist 17 Oct 2006

I am sorry for the flaming thingy, was just a bit upset when losing to the Wood Elves

Although I agree that Ogre Magic is hard to dispel, it isn't that great against Wood Elves.
Why? Because you can't scare those forest spirits, leaving only buffs and str2 hits as viable options. (Sure it gives them no ward save, but still.

Dear Thunderfist,

How, please, and in what world will a unit of 10 dryads be able to easily smash 4-5 Ironguts? Do you have magical Super dryads with Str.5 on the charge?
I am sorry that I am discounting the Calculator argument, but statistics do not serve well for WHFB since there are way too many factors (Magic, e.g.) that could influence that particular battle.

I will not fight with my unit of Ironguts against a unit that will win in theory, that also costs near-half of my points. I will come to the "magic part" later.

For Example:
I personally play 3 Butchers in my 2250 army and boy I tell you, that Gut magic won't be dispelled by no WE after turn 2 at the latest anymore. IF your dryads get the charge I am so 100% Sure that there will be lying a Trollguts spell or something similar on the Guts. Changes the math, no? So much said for my love for statistics or "Mathhammer".

Magic eh? Remember that you can always dispel RiP spells with power dice. If he is a good player he WILL do this after he has charged with his dryads.
3 dice will destroy that power level 7 spell, and will likely make you lose an entire unit of ironguts. Worth 3 power dice to kill an entire unit?

Again, I am sorry for my last rather unconstructive post

.
I have to agree with most of the other points you stated. Every WE player fears those Leadbelchers (a bit too much if you ask me, as it takes them a turn to reload they won't do THAT much damage if you "ignore" them).

Although the problem is that I used a rather magic-heavy army, and got a lot of spells through +having 2 units of belchers to get the flanks, still didn't work.
And by the way, my friend used 0 asrai units (not counting mages). If he had used some of those, it might have turned out different. It is the forest spirits that are the problem, nothing else.

(The fights was 1500pts, so no tyrant tactics for me

)

Cheers

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Aliasara 17 Oct 2006

I figured as much, it can really be painful when one gets smashed to the ground in a terrible way in the game

.
I guess my advice thing is only feasible for games of 2000 - 2250, cuz this is the point range I almost exclusively play in. I have no experience with smaller games.

And for the magic argument: It is true that he can always dispel the buffs but not too many unless he goes extremely magic crazy AND: Once he uses his Power dice for dispel measures he won't be able to harrass you anymore with moving woods and the like. And you will get them unit buffed up real quick with 3 butchers, so he has to make choices there, too. Even if he dispels the charged unit (wich is a rather unimportant one since you positioned yourself cleverly, right?) He will still have to worry about the buffed boys lurking behind, preparing for the countercharge.
And the str 2 hits ARE scary against the small units of his so he might go through pains to prevent you from successfully casting them.

And for the dryads... 10 dryads on the frontal charge vs 4 guts...I will believe it when I see it, but not before

.

Have fun vs. the evil pansies and may you be able to win soon.

Genghis Khan 17 Oct 2006

- The Tyrant will rip everyone in the WE army a new one, unless you are especially unlucky at rolling.... Use him well and against worthy targets. A Treeman would be good. Or Treekin. Or a pansie that hinks he is invulnerable just cuz he sits on a huge, green scaly thing. Target the Pansie and watch the Dragon go mad...Hurr, Hurr...

I think your too optimistic about the tyrant. Don't get me wrong, he is powerful but not indestructable. I went after treeman ancient with spites of annoyance and even a wardancer and strugle the fact I had to hit on 6's. That their only defense, without it, they are smash to bits. I faced on occasion and the tyrant was the one running away!

Who will be the next Khan in the Ogre Kingdoms?

TsuTsu 18 Oct 2006

A very interessting thread @ asrai.org... they DO fear us ^^

Link

~Gutonawa´s Journey for Blackpowder~

shavis 15 Jan 2007

USE YHETEES!

-1 to hit (which is vital against wardancers)

magical attacks (against forest spirits)

St5 (can crush any wood elf!)

M7 (very fast!)

Move through terrain (they can root out all those wimps hiding in the forests!)

Thanks!

15 Men In The Ogre's Gut
Yo Ho Ho And A Bottle Of Rum!

The Cutthroat's Den

Gus, Jimbob, Bertie and Callum. My little minions.

Tyrant Grog 23 Jan 2007

@ Shavis, if you put a very expensive unit of yhetees in a forest vs Wood Elves I must assume you are in an intensive care unit for being beaten around the head with a shovel...Tree Singing, cast on a 4, doing d6 str5 hits. If they have a calaingor's stave the mage with CS can cast it more than once. Yhetees aren't sacrificial. They will die horribly. If he has a unit of treekin, try to outmanouvre them, they are tough and will dish out hurt in the front, S5, T5, M5, 3A, 5+ Ward, Some armour save etc. And an annoyance of netlings is a very annoying item, though you might slip one or two attacks through with a tyrant, which will be painful for the treeman.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Huragh Brainchomper 19 Apr 2007

Does anyone have some kind of advice for playing these annoying Elves?
I play against Woodies quite often and they always kick my big Ogre butt. So some kind of advice would be great!

"Flames of Purification within my wings, smash everything to dust!"

J.C. 19 Apr 2007

Does anyone have some kind of advice for playing these annoying Elves?
I play against Woodies quite often and they always kick my big Ogre butt. So some kind of advice would be great!

Depends on the kind of wood elf army you are playing. My wood elf opponent almost always takes the forest spirt army against me when he finds out I am playing ogres. That annoying 5+ ward save seems to save his rear end way too often. I know that he is absolutuely terrified of my gorgers, yhetees, and leadblechers. Those leadbelchers, even though they aren't always effective, have to be accounted for because of what they potential could do to him. What ever shooting he has usually goes at them. If not then I move them up to shoot and protect my flanks. I have also used gnoblars effectively against him by combo charging with a unit of guts or bulls. That way I get the ranks and probably outnumber.
Take a lot of butchers in my mind too. I try for lots of buffs that make that shooting a lot harder or I try to get magic missiles off at him (take the bangstick!). But again I do this because I play that blasted forest spirit army and magic or magic items by pass his ward save. This is also one of the reasons I like yhetees, plus the fact that they are as good, or better, at moving through the woods than woodies.
Finally the gorgers are just great for all around chaos. My opponent never knows how to account for them and they can tie up a unit or two for some time.

If you have more specific questions I can try to help and I am sure that many out there are far more knowledgable than I am, but I hope this helps a little.

Thanks,
JC

Why?

Huragh Brainchomper 19 Apr 2007

He usually plays with lot of archers, a unit of Wardancers, 12 dryads, two units with 3 Treekin, a treeman(or sometimes two), a wizard with two scrolls and a noble/high born with the Alter kindred.

"Flames of Purification within my wings, smash everything to dust!"

J.C. 19 Apr 2007

I'd try lots of gorgers. Maybe Skrag if you don't mind special characters, and some leadbelchers. Also maybe a Hunter and his cats to go after archers(?). Definetely several units of ironguts with some naked bull screens. Also try a lot of butchers, even if you take Skrag, the ability to buff your units will be great! I'd like to say that taking out the treemen would be easy, but that will be tough. Take out his other stuff first and then worry about them. I know it sounds so easy and is really difficult

Thanks,
JC

Why?

Huragh Brainchomper 19 Apr 2007

Thanks for the advice, I can't wait to test them! I will let you know how it goes!

"Flames of Purification within my wings, smash everything to dust!"

Bullgut Irontooth 04 Jul 2007

Magic missiles are big. Reducing WE small elite skirmishers with a Bangstick or Bonecruncher is helpful (no forest spirit save either). Most of their stuff is T3 so Bonecruncher works well. I personally target their annoying fast cav. first and then war dancers if they have them.

Delrogue 11 Jul 2007

Go for a unit of Yhettees as well... one of the most annoying things (I find) with Woodies, is their ability to move through forests without penalty - can cause a lot of hassles for you. You can counter this, fire with fire style, with the Yhettees - use their tricks against them, like peeking one Yhettee around the corner of the forest, then using his LOS to charge the whole unit through the forest, into the units behind/inside them...

Thunderfist date unknown

Like I said, I disagree with you there. I think woodies are very suitable to play against with ogres. They have no ranks to speak of and most units will be completely demolished if they go up against an ogre unit 1-on-1, even if they get the charge. I can see ogre magic doing a lot of pain against woodies, and the great thing about it is that you don't even have to give up combat capability for it; give your butcher a nice siegebreaker and he can smash the shit out of most woodies, where as woodies will serious pay in terms of fighty heroes if they take lots of magic.

Over-all, I'd say to win with woodies against ogres you'd simply have to be a better general. 'Cause a good ogre general will demolish any elf army anytime. Just minimize the strenghts elfs hav over ogres and they don't stand a chance. This is all discounting the horrible dragon rider woodies can produce ofcourse, I wouldn't like to play against that one.

You were wrong at almost every point.

Instead of stating wierd stuff like "(bulls with la+if will even take on a wardancer charge and win CR if there's no character in the wardancer unit)", I have a nice little calculator for you here: http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/unit_combat.php. (note, use wardancers as attackers

Have you ever played against a wood elf army with the new rules? Even the dryads will often beat a full unit of bulls (and EASILY a 3-man MSU bull unit). Check the calculator if you do not believe me.

Sure, I do not really fear glade guard, nor do I fear glade riders. But it is NOT the asrai units that are the problem. It is the ones with the forest spirit rule.

Play some games against an able wood elf player that uses Forest Spirits, and come back.
If you somehow WIN, then you are either:
1. Not playing with much terrain (no woods means crappy WE magic, even though they get an extra wood).
2. You are incredibly lucky.
3. You are facing a bad enemy general.

Your theory and actual gameplay is flawed. A unit of 10 dryads (120 points), will smash an Irongut unit of 4 (perhaps 5 aswell). The only thing that can really kill those spirits of the forest, are the heroes.
You are also incorrect about the flank charge. Even if not playing an MSU army, you can always use your characters to prevent flanking (move them so you block the charge, they won't dare to attack crazy ogre characters)

Cheers icon_wink

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Minsc date unknown

Not trying to start a flamewar, but just have to point something out:

Your opinions are also a bit tad biased, Duxmortem.

Imto Thetlis (sp?) was right on mostly everything he said, and Wood Elves ARE though for Ogres.

Minsc will lead with Blade & Boot. Boo will take care of the details. *squeek*

Tyrant Grog date unknown

I think the Woodies are a nice army.(I have woodies myself) But ogres will eat them alive everytime. A tyrant will eat a treeman and treekin, Ironguts will eat dryads and bulls will eat everyhting else(gnoblars are practically useless except for capturing table quarters) and thats all you need, butchers will just 2D6 Str2 hit the archers and E.Guard, and the glade riders are nothing to be afraid of and vs Ogres, waywatchers are just expensive glade guard.

I would have no worries againt anything short of all forest spirit army.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
My Club forum; www.chchwargaming.org.nz/forum
Tyrant Grog.

Olaf Sunsmasher date unknown

I would have no worries againt anything short of all forest spirit army.

So does anyone have any advice against this kind of army or am I going to be doomed whenever it's brought out against me.

Aliasara date unknown

Dear Thunderfist,

How, please, and in what world will a unit of 10 dryads be able to easily smash 4-5 Ironguts? Do you have magical Super dryads with Str.5 on the charge?
I am sorry that I am discounting the Calculator argument, but statistics do not serve well for WHFB since there are way too many factors (Magic, e.g.) that could influence that particular battle.

For Example:
I personally play 3 Butchers in my 2250 army and boy I tell you, that Gut magic won't be dispelled by no WE after turn 2 at the latest anymore. IF your dryads get the charge I am so 100% Sure that there will be lying a Trollguts spell or something similar on the Guts. Changes the math, no? So much said for my love for statistics or "Mathhammer".

The Wood Elves, like any army, are nowhere near impossible to beat for an OK army. It is hard but it really can be done. Here are some points that might prove helpful.

- Leadbelchers make for good flank protection. Keep in mind that they have an effective range of 18" with their guns. Sadly they will most likely be sacrificial units, but they are scary enough for the pansies that he has to deal (shoot most likely) with them OR let them limit his mobility on your flank. (Yes my Dear, move them Wild Riders up for a flank charge...BOOOM Har Har Har....). Just don't get mad when a silly, bony looking fella in a green dress walks out of a patch of woods and says: I SHOOT YE ARROW OF DOOM AT THEEE! after wich one unit of leadbelchers lies pincusioned as fertilizer on the forest floor.

- Denial of magic mobility: Yes he can move his trees around AND THE UNITS of his that are in them. You do not want that, since he will try to part your army and finish them piecemeal. DENY him a successful Magic Phase ESPECIALLY when he is trying to gain the upper hand on you movementwise.

- Don't go into the Woods.

- Bring some Gnoblars along. They are great for taking charges and arrows in the belly. They do great vs WE as screens and as annoyance and probably death to Archer units. Pointy things in Elven faces make every Tyrant happy...

- Keep your stuff together: DO NOT LET HIM PART YOUR ARMY. Ever. Yes he can probably dictate the charges to a certain extent. Make sure that there is something left to countercharge HIM once the dust settles. Draw him out of the woods with baiting or really threatening units. Buffed Maneaters are great for taking a charge of Treekin/Treemen/Dryads/Riders anchoring them firmly in place while the rest of the army moves in for the kill (if the maneaters alone can't manage...) for example. Create Charge opportunities for him but let him charge the units YOU want him to charge, not the other way round.

- The Tyrant will rip everyone in the WE army a new one, unless you are especially unlucky at rolling.... Use him well and against worthy targets. A Treeman would be good. Or Treekin. Or a pansie that hinks he is invulnerable just cuz he sits on a huge, green scaly thing. Target the Pansie and watch the Dragon go mad...Hurr, Hurr...

- Let a neutral person set up the battlefield. 2 starting pieces of wood (None of which may cover more than one half of the table) are more than ample. Refuse to play the person if the board is set up in a most biased way.

- Don't go for the Archers with Ogres, let the Gnoblars or Belchers try finish them. Point your hammer units at his Treekin, they mustn't flee from a charge icon_biggrin

. Use that to your advantage. Do NOT think the WE frail in battle, though. A unit of 3 Bulls will probably not succeed vs Dryads or Treekin or Wardancers. A Unit of 4 Guts most probably will, though. Unless it is the Wardancers.

- Wardancers: Shoot them if you somehow can. Decimate them before you go hand to hand with them. They are really terrible foes and should not be taken lightly.

- Hunters and Yhetees won't do to well vs WE. Best leave them out of your army.

Pooohhh.... That took a long time to write. These are my 2 cents, for now. Feel free to disagree. And Thunderfist: Before you tell people that they are babbling, do not do so yourself. I mean, Duxmortem might have been a little too optimistic about the CC prowess of his bulls but although you might be a decent general and very much in love with the treehugging little hippies there are people that actually know how to play OK out there and have managaed to *gasp* beat the hippies on an even field ith equally "skilled" generals facing off.
I realy do think that the WE have some advantages in the MU but it is not nearly as dramatic as you or Thethlis have put it. I wish you best of luck beating the pansies, you will find them rather bony, though icon_biggrin

.

Cheers,

Aliasara

Grimclaw date unknown

I agree with Alisara, im not much of a fan of "mathhammer", its a game of dice and that which is statistically correct is seldom seen on the battlefield. Units are very very very very seldom paired with eachother in CC without any other factors at all in play (magic etc.) and that ofc goes both ways. Im gonna play a friends WE soon so well see how that goes but im actually not too optimistic about my chances... Pesky Wardancers scaring the holymoly out of me.

Duxmortem date unknown

"You were wrong at almost every
point."

Nice little red line there. Sadly though the layout of your post is the only thing worth praising about it. Im actually wondering if yer post wouldn't be considered flaming. When you read my post again, you will see I'm not trying to attack the person but only the biase in the post. When I then get comments that if I ever win against woodies it must be against a bad general, i consider that flaming, especially since you chose to ignore the actual arguments presented in my post. So I will ask you nicely to stop flaming.

And thunderfist: actually, a good friend of mine plays wood elfs, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't believe me on the wardancers vs bulls, try it out yourself in an actual battle, not a calculator. Because not only are you using a mathematecally incorrect procedure to calculate what will happen (averages will never give an accurate view of the cc prowess of a unit...try calculating the average chance ofdoing a set number of wounds against a set adversary, that will be much coser to what usually happens in a battle), like aliasara said gut magic can severely influence the battle. I've found bulls with a 4+save are consistenly underjudged on this forum. It might just be that I'm especially lucky with them so far, but I've found there's not a lot that can break them if you give 'm a banner and character. A wardancer group might get 8 guys into contact. The chance of killing 2 ogres on the charge then is actually below 50%. And you NEED to kill 2 ogres to win CR. It only works with a character in the unit ofcourse, I dunno if I mentioned that, otherwise I apologize for that. Without character the statistics are way different.

I know I'm biased when it comes to the bulls with la+if, but the rest of my post was unbiased as far as I;m concerned. The reason I'm biased about the bulls is because as an (originally) elf player there's nothing more scary for me then ogres with a decent saving throw.

"You are also incorrect about the flank charge. Even if not playing an MSU army, you can always use your characters to prevent flanking (move them so you block the charge, they won't dare to attack crazy ogre characters)"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean there. I was saying that against an msu ogre army you will find it difficult to get off flank charges. But really my point about the flank charges with glade riders was that it will actually help the ogre player in most cases when you flank charge with them because they are easy kills and thus easy CR.

Thunderfist date unknown

I am sorry for the flaming thingy, was just a bit upset when losing to the Wood Elves icon_redface

Although I agree that Ogre Magic is hard to dispel, it isn't that great against Wood Elves.
Why? Because you can't scare those forest spirits, leaving only buffs and str2 hits as viable options. (Sure it gives them no ward save, but still.

Dear Thunderfist,

How, please, and in what world will a unit of 10 dryads be able to easily smash 4-5 Ironguts? Do you have magical Super dryads with Str.5 on the charge?
I am sorry that I am discounting the Calculator argument, but statistics do not serve well for WHFB since there are way too many factors (Magic, e.g.) that could influence that particular battle.

I will not fight with my unit of Ironguts against a unit that will win in theory, that also costs near-half of my points. I will come to the "magic part" later.

For Example:
I personally play 3 Butchers in my 2250 army and boy I tell you, that Gut magic won't be dispelled by no WE after turn 2 at the latest anymore. IF your dryads get the charge I am so 100% Sure that there will be lying a Trollguts spell or something similar on the Guts. Changes the math, no? So much said for my love for statistics or "Mathhammer".

Magic eh? Remember that you can always dispel RiP spells with power dice. If he is a good player he WILL do this after he has charged with his dryads.
3 dice will destroy that power level 7 spell, and will likely make you lose an entire unit of ironguts. Worth 3 power dice to kill an entire unit?

Again, I am sorry for my last rather unconstructive post icon_wink

.
I have to agree with most of the other points you stated. Every WE player fears those Leadbelchers (a bit too much if you ask me, as it takes them a turn to reload they won't do THAT much damage if you "ignore" them).

Although the problem is that I used a rather magic-heavy army, and got a lot of spells through +having 2 units of belchers to get the flanks, still didn't work.
And by the way, my friend used 0 asrai units (not counting mages). If he had used some of those, it might have turned out different. It is the forest spirits that are the problem, nothing else.

(The fights was 1500pts, so no tyrant tactics for me icon_frown

)

Cheers

"BOOM! Hur hur hur..."

Aliasara date unknown

I figured as much, it can really be painful when one gets smashed to the ground in a terrible way in the game icon_smile

.
I guess my advice thing is only feasible for games of 2000 - 2250, cuz this is the point range I almost exclusively play in. I have no experience with smaller games.

And for the magic argument: It is true that he can always dispel the buffs but not too many unless he goes extremely magic crazy AND: Once he uses his Power dice for dispel measures he won't be able to harrass you anymore with moving woods and the like. And you will get them unit buffed up real quick with 3 butchers, so he has to make choices there, too. Even if he dispels the charged unit (wich is a rather unimportant one since you positioned yourself cleverly, right?) He will still have to worry about the buffed boys lurking behind, preparing for the countercharge.
And the str 2 hits ARE scary against the small units of his so he might go through pains to prevent you from successfully casting them.

And for the dryads... 10 dryads on the frontal charge vs 4 guts...I will believe it when I see it, but not before icon_smile

.

Have fun vs. the evil pansies and may you be able to win soon.

Genghis Khan date unknown

- The Tyrant will rip everyone in the WE army a new one, unless you are especially unlucky at rolling.... Use him well and against worthy targets. A Treeman would be good. Or Treekin. Or a pansie that hinks he is invulnerable just cuz he sits on a huge, green scaly thing. Target the Pansie and watch the Dragon go mad...Hurr, Hurr...

I think your too optimistic about the tyrant. Don't get me wrong, he is powerful but not indestructable. I went after treeman ancient with spites of annoyance and even a wardancer and strugle the fact I had to hit on 6's. That their only defense, without it, they are smash to bits. I faced on occasion and the tyrant was the one running away!

Tournament Results

Massacre: 9 Solid Victory: 14 Minor Victory: 6 Draw: 5 Minor Defeat: 3 Solid Defeat: 3 Massacred: 2

TsuTsu date unknown

A very interessting thread @ asrai.org... they DO fear us ^^

Link

~Gutonawa´s Journey for Blackpowder~

shavis date unknown

USE YHETEES!

-1 to hit (which is vital against wardancers)

magical attacks (against forest spirits)

St5 (can crush any wood elf!)

M7 (very fast!)

Move through terrain (they can root out all those wimps hiding in the forests!)

Thanks!

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Tyrant Grog date unknown

@ Shavis, if you put a very expensive unit of yhetees in a forest vs Wood Elves I must assume you are in an intensive care unit for being beaten around the head with a shovel...Tree Singing, cast on a 4, doing d6 str5 hits. If they have a calaingor's stave the mage with CS can cast it more than once. Yhetees aren't sacrificial. They will die horribly. If he has a unit of treekin, try to outmanouvre them, they are tough and will dish out hurt in the front, S5, T5, M5, 3A, 5+ Ward, Some armour save etc. And an annoyance of netlings is a very annoying item, though you might slip one or two attacks through with a tyrant, which will be painful for the treeman.

Save the Trees, eat Beavers.
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Tyrant Grog.

Ogur 24 Sep 2007

I've been having serious problems with these filleting machines called wardancers. Anyone got any suggestions? These are the only guys I've seen capable of dicing a bruiser in stead of breaking him.

Pip the butcher's gnob!
Fetch the pack gnob!

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Wildcard 24 Sep 2007

bonecruncher and bangstick help a lot - they are still only T3 1 wound models

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Kadrium 24 Sep 2007

Trappers are also very handy. Gnoblar fighters generally get in your way and keep you from advancing, while it's not hard for a unit to shoot your 120mm wide unit of 3 ogres trying to hide behind a 100mm wide unit of gnoblars.

Trappers can start out way up front in the woods and jump out to march block/screen shooting/generally annoy the hell out of the elfs for turn or two before the ogres get there.

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Quote from: Sterling on Sep 21, 2007, 02:01:04 PM

I once accidentally declared a 20" charge because I though it looked like 12

Dorgh Bonesnapper 08 Nov 2007

against people who use a full dryad army i just take lots of ironguts and the gnoblar scraplaucher which has proven to be very helpful for me

Cormorant 28 Nov 2007

I think the most important thing to remember against the WE is to mentally track where that additional piece of terrain can be placed. Nothing ties us up faster than having to maneuver several units around one piece of randomized terrain - and this is only worsened by the wonderful spell Treesinging. Just try to remember where to place the concentration of ogres that will draw the additional terrain in front of them, and have a plan ready to get around it as fast as possible.

IMHO, coming from a general perspective, Toothcracker and Trollguts are your absolute best friends. Bangsticks and Bonecrunchers are nice, but I think the support spells work better overall. I use those spells still however, but I use them up first to burn their dispel pool to get the support spells off. Let's face it, trying to out shoot them, just placates to their strategy, and we dont shoot very well at all. The +1T is wonderful against their bows, reducing the number of shooting wounds caused virtually in half. Save the trollguts for the units that will be charging their heavy hitters.

Against the Fairy list, I just setup like I normally would against any other CC style army, with the exception that I make sure to double slam the wardancers. It is one of the few aggressive units they have. So what I do is send up Naked Bulls with TC, and some form of units on each flank turned enough that even if the bulls do not hold, you can get the flanks after pursuit -but still able to charge if the bulls do hold (if that makes sense). Since the wardancers are skirmishers, (assuming the bulls broke), after you declare the first charge, they will rank up against that unit, then when the other charge resolves, you get them on the rear automatically with the other. That will squish them pretty much everytime. The Tyrant and his personal IGs should go after their main hitters (Treemen especially, the T destroys this guy pretty quick). Bullgorger is a good support spell for any ogre unit really against the Trees, Dryads and Treemen. After the spells are in play, proceed to double team as always, chop away at them and they will fall.

Against the shooters, as mentioned above, just get those Trollguts and Toothcrackers ready. I typically use Braingobblers, Bonecrunchers and the Bangstick to eat up their dispel pool and then get those spells on chargers. Since you will never be able to lure archers, get the naked bull units ready for combat to! I setup a couple of distraction units for the archers, usually a unit of bulls, and/or as Kadrium pointed out Trappers for them to shoot at for a round or two. (Trappers are really nice for this because they can be a shooting threat and they are skirmishers.) I setup on the opposite side of their firing concentration (or on each extreme board side if its centralized) and crush their CC units first. This serves two purposes. One, your units cant be shot if they are in CC; and second, if you go after the archers first, they will charge into your flanks and rear with their CC units - and you will lose with or without support spells. Sweep them from one side, right off the edge of the table.

To field more Trappers and make a very, very nice distraction unit, try a Hunter with 2 Cav kitties and Mastondon Armor. Release the kitties to smash into their units, kill champions and mage characters, and draw their fire. If they die, big deal. They can shoot the Hunter all game long, and that Mastondon Armor will keep him alive. Not to mention, you get another unit of Trappers to keep them busy and the Hunter can stand back and try to take chunks out of the Large Targets and/or RF troops.

I have played against the WE more than I would like to (in fact 4 wins and 1 draw in my record below are the WE), and these tactics have worked the best for me. Hope this helps!

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Total Ogre Record:
40 W (15 massacres) / 15 D/ 12 L

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keef 11 Dec 2007

other than bonecrusher and a boom stick and advise on taking on wardancers played a game and would have done pretty well if only i could have dealt with his two large units of wardancers one of them having full command and some character in it me think

Corai 13 Dec 2007

I ewouldn't actually recommend using m,agic to target the wardancers as their MR tends to scupper me every time. This might be one of those rare occasions where Ogre Shooting is the way to go

Thanks
corai

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Matto 02 Mar 2008

I've been having serious problems with these filleting machines called wardancers. Anyone got any suggestions? These are the only guys I've seen capable of dicing a bruiser in stead of breaking him.

Use bigger units. I know the vogue is for MSU but I like to take my bulls in units of six.

Assuming you are against 10 wardancers

One of the things that is annoying as an ogre player is you virtually never get a rank bonus. If you are using MSU tactics you will likely be outnumbered, but if you use units of six bulls, with a standard bearer (2 rows of three) you will start with the outnumber, they won't get a rank when they are ranked up. it will be (8 +2 corner to corner) They can't have a standard, so you are two up before a blow is thrown.

If you get the bull charge, you are squishing them on 2+ because you are strength 5 on the impact hits. Use iron fists as extra hand weapons and hand out 13 squishes (you still only need 4), and three to wound. The dances make things trixy but even if they take the 4+ ward save I think you can be confident of taking out 4 When you charge. Leaving them only 4 to strike back. Even without the bull charge, you are doing a enough damage to cause them real problems, and remeber you are two up on resolution

If they charge you, then you have problem but use your ironfist as a sheild, it is girly but it gives a save, given they are hitting at strength 4. I calculate (very roughly) 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, you'll save 1, giving you seven shots back, doing about 2 kills... Actually don't get charged. To be fair though you could probably last a turn or two until something could get them in the flank, but you really need that bonecrunching first round to get you rolling.

Alternatively, Lead belchers.

Bob the Butcher 24 Jun 2008

Shoot the War dancers with Gnoblars/belchers if you can to soften up their numbers.

Yhetees ensure no Ward Saves so are very useful vs Dryads etc...and ignore the pesky woods that get moved around.

Take on the Treekin/Tree Men with the Tyrants unit and buffed up IG's.

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Randroid 28 Jun 2008

I am playing WE for the first time next week. I have no idea what my opponent may bring, but it is a 1000pt game so I am pretty sure some of the higher cost stuff is out (like Treemen).

From reading through this post I saw the following things mentioned often as being important.

- Take a Butcher with Bangstick. Buffs and Braingobbler, Bonecruncher can be useful.
- Take Yhetees. Their magic weapons and terrain navigation minimize the effectiveness of some WE troops.
- Take Gorgers. Not really sure why but I saw this a few times.
- Take Leadbelchers. Use them as bait or shoot the heck out of the smaller groups of Wardancers/etc.
- Take Trappers. I always do!

Any thoughts on a Hunter or Scraplauncher against these damn elves? It seems like the Scraplauncher could be quite devastating if I can get the guess range down right.

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Iceblade 29 Jun 2008

You won't need a scraplauncher as a treeman will almost definitely not be there. Take as many Yhetees as possible, they negate the ward save on forest spirits as they use magical attacks. you could take a hunter with cats to destroy any units of Glade Guard on hills or generally wreak havoc around the board.

It seems many people here have trouble with wardancers so let me see if I can help by telling you everything I know about Wardancers (this is a fair bit as I am a WE player)

They are special units and cost 18 points each and must be used in a group of 5-15, the ideal unit size is 8. They have the special rules Skirmish, Immune to Psychology, Talismanic Tattoos (6+ ward save, Magic resistance 1) and Shadow Dances of Loec (they must choose one of these dances each turn they are in combat, they cannot use the same dance 2 times in a row:

Whirling Death: Killing Blow for 1 turn
Storm of Blades: +1 attack for 1 turn
The Shadows Coil: 4+ ward save for 1 turn
Woven Mist: Always Strike First Rule for 1 turn, lose 1 attack off of profile for 1 turn

Hope I've Helped !

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Randroid 29 Jun 2008

Yes you have! That is all helpful information to know.

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Iceblade 01 Jul 2008

not a problem, I'm glad to help however I can. Simply PM me if you want me to post up more info about the wood elves

Tell me what you cherish most, give me the pleasure of taking it away.- Sephiroth, Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children

manaknight 28 Jul 2008

Last week I played a 2000 game against wood elves, and despite being shredded I think I learned a couple of things worth sharing:

- Using the gnoblars (fighters or trappers) as a screen is risky: they failed the bicker test in the worst moment, so the threeman could place himself behind them (without LOS from my tyrant, buffed Ironguts or Butcher with the siegebreaker) and maim units with his roots (which do not need LOS).

- The dragon with a highborn having the fairie power that makes you hit on 6+ on challenges and has a ward save of 3+ (until one is missed). I don't think we have an effective way to deal with it: after fleeing once with my tyrant he ended up charging it, and score three wounds (one saved with the necklace), while I didn't score any (so my 50 pts tenderizer was useless). Then the terror made my flee and to be overun. The only way I can figure to stop him is to shoot with gnoblar units (difficult with a so mobile target) or charge him with ironguts and pray for a passed fear test and some missed ward saves, since he can chew up our characters single handly. Even if we set a contercharge with our guts after fleeing with the general a good WE general would charge the IGs first and then deal with the tyrant.

- Terror is a problem for the low leadership of our ogres, but is even worse for autobreak: I lost the tyrant and a butcher to it. The case I would like to highlight is the butcher with siegebreaker agaist the threeman: after being charged both scored one wound, but I was defeated due to outnumber and forced to flee due to terror. If I had been protected against it I think I'd have killed it (with some magical help).

- The yehtis are too vulnerable to shooting: the arrow of doom (highborn riding the dragon) trashed me. The strangle attack from the threeman is also nasty for us.

- Gutmagic: my opponent had a middle magic defense, but his tactics were very sound: he only stopped the bonecruncher and braingobbler, and then in his magic phase he used his power dice to remove our buffs. That way he did not cast any spell (so the forest did not move for once), but I could not use magic effectively. I admit he dictated the charges, so the spells were not active when they were necessary: in his shoting and combat phases.

- Despite this problem with gutmagic, this time I'd say our best spell once in combat is trollguts (regeneration), but bonecruncher is definitely a key weapon for us.

- WE archery was not so decisive (I guess my opponent used too many points between the dragon, the threeman, the mages and the wardancers to get some decent shooting), he just scored one or two wounds in the whole game with this units of riders and archers, and here being T4 really helps a bit. For once: I was not in a hurry to get into close combat.

- The leadbelchers (three units of 2) were as unreliable as ever: the failed to kill an eagle (just one wound), and then they just killed one wardancer, so they did not stop any of these units.

Well, I still have to learn how to deal with a tooled up dragon (any ideas?), but I hope all these helps in future battles against these WE.

Fighting for the greater good, ... I mean for the greater meal.

Bob the Butcher 29 Jul 2008

The Gorgers can be ok with their T5 saving a lot of wounds. Also for rear threats to disrupt enemy lines.

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manaknight 29 Jul 2008

I thought about including Gorgers, but I don't think they are so useful against the wood elves: there don't have warmachines to hunt and the elven tactics of having small mobile hard hitting units does not help either, there are very few things the gorgers can fix. Next time I play against WE I'll give a the gorgers a try, but I think I'd exchange the pair of gorgers for another unit of ironguts against this type of army.

Obviously, if you are able to catch the dragon with a gorger you have a decent chance of bitting the enemy's general head off his neck and forget about the netlings, but a competent WE general won't allow this combat for sure.

Fighting for the greater good, ... I mean for the greater meal.

ThatRickGuy 30 Jul 2008

- The dragon with a highborn having the fairie power that makes you hit on 6+ on challenges and has a ward save of 3+ (until one is missed). I don't think we have an effective way to deal with it:

The best way to deal with anything with the Annoyance of Netlings is to not challenge it. Keep your Tyrant busy doing what he does best: Killing things. And let Bulls and Iron Guts take out that dragon, heck, he's a large target, with some nice vollies from Lead Belchers, you have a shot at getting enough hits in that his 3+ save is going to fail and poof.

- Terror is a problem for the low leadership of our ogres, but is even worse for autobreak: I lost the tyrant and a butcher to it. The case I would like to highlight is the butcher with siegebreaker agaist the threeman: after being charged both scored one wound, but I was defeated due to outnumber and forced to flee due to terror. If I had been protected against it I think I'd have killed it (with some magical help).

Treemen are a pain in the arse. Your best bet there is a unit of 3 Iron Guts or a unit of 3 Yhetees. Yhetees will do better, but they are great to have in so many places against WE's. And so many people go with Annoyance of Netlings on a Treeman Ancient, the last thing you want to do is to put him in combat with a character or champ.

- The leadbelchers (three units of 2) were as unreliable as ever: the failed to kill an eagle (just one wound), and then they just killed one wardancer, so they did not stop any of these units.

War dancers aren't a great target for Lead Belchers. Skirmishers make them hit on 5's instead of 4's which is bad enough. The great eagle isn't ideal either, but it's kind of a target of necesity to keep him from march blocking you. That Dragon or the Treeman though, large targets, you're hitting on 3's. At S4 AP with a whole lot of shots, you've got a decent chance at killing that pansy elf right off the top. Although getting a dragon to fly into your threat range is pretty unlikely

For treemen, I've always liked the 'Hugh Block of Gnoblars' approach. 24-28 Gnoblar fighters. You start out with 4 static CR. Sure, they won't be able to hurt the tree worth a squat, but odds are in their favor to win combat twice, which is two chances for your opponent to fail at stubborn Ld8/9 test.

WE dragons, I haven't seen much of (primarily because 2xTreemen+BSB is brutal on its own), But I would aim for getting a lead belcher volley on it and hope you can negate that 3+ ward save.

-Rick

"No Guts, No Gory!!"

WAR: Ebenthorin@Skavenblight, R9RR9 Dwarven Ironbreaker

manaknight 30 Jul 2008

Thanks for the remarks, ThatRickGuy; let me make some comments about them.

The best way to deal with anything with the Annoyance of Netlings is to not challenge it. Keep your Tyrant busy doing what he does best: Killing things. And let Bulls and Iron Guts take out that dragon, heck, he's a large target, with some nice vollies from Lead Belchers, you have a shot at getting enough hits in that his 3+ save is going to fail and poof.

The problem here is that there is almost no place where the tyrant can hide from the dragon. And even worse: if you get yourself in a ironguts unit and reject the challenge then he is useless, the ironguts get smashed and then he flees because of the terror without fighting and not having a chance to hit. However, I'll think about it, it may be a way to deal with it.

Treemen are a pain in the arse. Your best bet there is a unit of 3 Iron Guts or a unit of 3 Yhetees. Yhetees will do better, but they are great to have in so many places against WE's. And so many people go with Annoyance of Netlings on a Treeman Ancient, the last thing you want to do is to put him in combat with a character or champ.

Absolutely right, but the Ancient is slow, you can avoid him getting into combat with your characters and countercharge him with your ironguts after preparing a trap for him. The dragon with his high movement ratio is not that easy to escape and flies, so dominates the movement, dictates the charges and can avoid getting into your LOS.

War dancers aren't a great target for Lead Belchers. Skirmishers make them hit on 5's instead of 4's which is bad enough. The great eagle isn't ideal either, but it's kind of a target of necesity to keep him from march blocking you. That Dragon or the Treeman though, large targets, you're hitting on 3's. At S4 AP with a whole lot of shots, you've got a decent chance at killing that pansy elf right off the top. Although getting a dragon to fly into your threat range is pretty unlikely

I agree completely, I should have tried to soften the dragon with the belchers, since I had once in turn 2 a change to go on him. I tried to hit the eagle instead (because of the march blocking), and my opponent was lucky enough to survive four discarges (only 12 shots, damn bad luck).

For treemen, I've always liked the 'Hugh Block of Gnoblars' approach. 24-28 Gnoblar fighters. You start out with 4 static CR. Sure, they won't be able to hurt the tree worth a squat, but odds are in their favor to win combat twice, which is two chances for your opponent to fail at stubborn Ld8/9 test.

That's worth considering: however the failed the terror test (dragon), so I could not use them for holding up the big guys. It is worthwhile noticing that gnoblars are probably our best answer against the Ancient!

Thanks for the input, I still think that is one of our worst enemies, but I think I learned a lot from that defeat, and some of your comments might be helpful for the revenge match.

Fighting for the greater good, ... I mean for the greater meal.

Cathaln Haggis Eater 15 Oct 2008

I normally field units of eight bulls is that to big agaisnt WE if so how big should dey be? How big should my unit/s of IG be?

Ogur 15 Oct 2008

Most people consider 8 models too big in any build. I prefer 3 to 4 ogres per unit. Against wood elves I have got mainly losses with my ogres. They are a tough nut to crack if they are played well.

Pip the butcher's gnob!
Fetch the pack gnob!

Only technicians do not trust technology...

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manaknight 26 Jan 2009

I've played another match against wood elves (this time without a dragon) and there is a couple of points I'd like to discuss:

- Yehtis: far too week, and their main advantage (terrain) cannot be used against WE, since treesinging prevents them from getting near the woods. I don't think I'm using them again against WE: dryads trash them, archers maim them and their leadership prevents them from using them in the flanks, and they are so costly in points! I was afraid that they would be destroyed by the doom arrow, but a simple archer unit was able to finish them in two turns.

- Maneaters with braces of handguns: despite not being really lucky, they did some damage. The extra attack for having an XWH is really useful, and they are S5, so a GW is not necessary unless you want to cut some wood. They helped a lot by destroying some flyers and light cavalry, which are very mobile and difficult to tackle with our brutes). Just remember to screen them from some of the enemy shooting, since they become priority one targets after the yehtis have been dealt with.

- Tyrant with GW, brace of handgunds and beastkiller was a really good combination: it chopped down the treeman, some dryads and almost killed the enemy general with the annoyance of netlings (he failed to wound in 2+ his only succesful attack when the opponent had only one wound left and was killed in the following round).

- Bulls and leadbelchers have a really tough day: they have really low chances of winning a combat against wardancers and dryads. I would not recommend them too much for this opponent.

- I decided to leave the butchers at home and just fielded one for magic defense and then a hunter. The extra unit of trappers is really useful, and despite the hunter failing miserably due to poor dice throws, I think is a better option than going magic heavy, but I have to try this again.

At the end I was defeated, but with a bit more of luck I would have finally scored a victory against WEs! But unfortunately, my belchers, hunter and tyrant did not push their attacks home, but I think that WE without a dragon are not impossible to beat.

Fighting for the greater good, ... I mean for the greater meal.

Reg06 24 Apr 2009

- Tyrant with GW, brace of handgunds and beastkiller was a really good combination: it chopped down the treeman, some dryads and almost killed the enemy general with the annoyance of netlings (he failed to wound in 2+ his only succesful attack when the opponent had only one wound left and was killed in the following round).

I'm surprised your tyrant did so well. He didn't have a magic weapon, so the dryads and treeman would get their ward save, which makes a big difference.

Quote from: Ganymede on Mar 26, 2009, 11:17:45 AM

If by RAW, you mean "Reg06's Audacious Whims", then you'd be right.

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Bob the Butcher 14 Jul 2009

Don't forget our Gnoblars.

Blocks of 20 Gnoblar fighters can dish out a lot of shooting especially if targets are on a hill. S2 vs T3 isn't to bad. Deploy as far forward as allowable and full speed ahead avoid terrain speed bumps.

Trappers say no more great! lil fellas in forest are a nuisance and may draw some attention off the real troops.

Double shooting these Gnobbies vs non skirmish T3 Wood Elves is pretty good. Not as useful vs Forest Spirit army.

WC's Achievements 29/101 = 29% completed

Ogres 5:0:0 (New Book) vs. Dwarves, Empire, HE's, VC's and WE's.

2008 Nominated for: Achievements in Tactics & Strategy Ogre Stronghold

Wildcard 14 Jul 2009

trappers in a forest are dead (tree singing) - anything in a forset gets killed quick!

x105 - keeping pace with my wins!

Ogre achievements: 65/101 latest: maneater (play in 5 different venues)

Latest Fantasy Result: ogre kingdoms vs. high elves - 1500 points - win!

8th edition: 105/25/12
New ogres: 36/6/5

I was born and bred in a briar patch!

MikeShaw 18 Nov 2009

what is the best way to deal with a 25 man unit of eternal guard with a lord with the hail of doom arrows in it and a few other magic items the unit has broken my IG and Bulls multiple Times should i just try to Ignore this Unit and wipe out the Glade guard and dryads he brings Im just not sure how to Deal with this Unit Ive Even Thrown My giant at it and still they manage to survive taking out this unit is vital to my victory any advice is great thanks in advance

Eat Then All!!!!

Enkiel 11 May 2011

that strategy could work... if all he had was his 50 archer.

but he got treekin, and other annoyance that you must consider.

And most likely a magic phase.

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The Ultra-Mega Bob 11 May 2011

So what tactic did you use when you played against this list?

Maybe you should just let him win when he brings this list out; he did spend all that time making an 11 story tower, he probably needs a win here and there to make him feel more satisfied with his life.

Quote from: IMTHINKING on Sep 21, 2011, 02:33:46 PM

Their tears will be a perfect addition to the Butcher's cauldron.

Mercules 11 May 2011

Let him win? Pffffft.. I would deploy 30" away from that tower and stay 30" away the whole game while commenting that I was fine with a draw. Make him angry that I won't step into the kill zone and maybe get his other forces coming to me.

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Enkiel 11 May 2011

Problem with that plan is that 'Ard Boyz is not all about pitch battle.

if you let him have 75% of the table, there's good chance he'll get at least a minor victory for the scenarios

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Mercules 11 May 2011

Depends on the Scenario.

In the Semi-Finals Scenario 1 will require him coming to kill you. Scenario 2 is Dawn Attack so it might take him a turn or two to get into his tower so it could get wacky but try and grab the fanatic right off the bat and take it back to your lines then make him come get it. Scenario 3 is Blood and Glory and again he has to come get you. Meanwhile you drop Scraplauncher templates on any unit he has banners in.

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Beefquake 11 May 2011

So what tactic did you use when you played against this list?

Maybe you should just let him win when he brings this list out; he did spend all that time making an 11 story tower, he probably needs a win here and there to make him feel more satisfied with his life.

An 11-story tower is clearly compensating for something.

Xoan 13 Jun 2011

someone here won 'Ard boyz with wood elf in 1st round. His list?

a lord with folding tower (11 level of folding tower).
50 or so archer, with all the tricks possible to imagine. so Stand and shoot no matter the distance, 30" all around shooting, etc.
a few other unit of treekin and stuff like that. Basically, not enough outside of the tower to give anything but a small victory, but enough to contest capture pts and such

How is it even possible to win against an army like that? i mean come on, 50 archer shooting at 30"?

I read somewhere that most buildings are considered 3 floors and certainly if you look at the model in the book, and what they sale they have a 3 floored building. On page 126 it says that players must agree, as in if it is reasonable than who is to argue, but when it is 5 per floor and 11 floors tall... at 3 inches or so per floor. I want him to have a 11 floored 33+ inch tall tower that stands up on its own. Then I would still argue the point, yes it is 'Ard Boyz but that doesn't mean you forget your brain too when making lists.

Not on your part but on his part.

As to how to deal with it, I would use magic missiles on him and work that number down. Wood Elfs get a +1 str if you are in short range, I would keep that in mind too.

Another tactic to watch out for with buildings is very large ones width and depth wise. Since a model within there has 360 arc, and you measure from the edge I wold keep that in mind as well. Given Wood Elfs an extra 8 or 10 inches left and right of their deployment and a enough room to hide a dragon is not fair for that item.

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