Advice needed vs a LM player ASAP - Playing later today

This guy almost always plays the exact same list, so is pretty predicatable.  The down side is he knows his force very well and has core tactics that are a tough nut to crack.  This is a 2.5k game.

It is built around a 2nd gen slann in a big unit of TG.  He will have 2 skink priests running loose to cast 2nd Sign of Amul and misc other stuff.  His battle line almost always looks like this:

3 Kroxw/ skink screen : Slann/TG : Steg : Saurus  Block  :  3 Krox w/ skink screen

He advances in mass and usually just bulls his way in.  I don't have the rhinox models yet, so have shied away from a rhinox build so far.

Advice on how to face this?  The slann/TG block will be stubborn and cause fear.  The saurus will have spears, meaning LOTS of attacks.

I was thinking yhettees to face the leftmost krox, with 3 IGs behind.  The yhettees will get their licks in, but very possibly lose combat.  My tyrant, however, will be with 2 (3?) ME right next to them to face the big TG unit, to help them rally as they race past.

I figure my tyrant with 2/3 ME (using cathayan longswords) will generate enough kills to keep the front rank of TG dead every combat round.  There will 2 more MEs right next to me to deal with the steg, who will doubtless try to flank my tyrant/ME unit.  Neither the tyrant nor the MEs have great weapons, because this combat is going to be a meatgrinder, and i don't want those S5 (with halberds) temple guard EVER getting an attack back.  I was going to put the tyrant on the steg side, so his T5 combined with the Deathcheater bigname meant he could survive a charge from the steg.  I was going to give HIM a CLS as well, so his boosted WS of 7 would mean the steg would need 5's to hit him (assuming i survive the impact hits!).

Okay, so far, left to right, 3 yhettees with 3 IG behind.  Then 2 MEs with tyrant (CLS, 3 thief stones, Deathcheater), then 2 MEs with GW for the Steg.

On the other far flank, I was sending 3 more yhettees at the krox, with 4-wide bulls behind with AHW to take the krox as they chase the yhettees (4 for the extra attack, and to outnumber the yhettees as they run by).

Okay, tackling the saurus block is the problem here.  They will get a whopping 12 attacks from the front 2 rows (saurus have base 2 attacks per model, but only get 1 attack from the second rank with spears).  So I would have to do 12 wounds to prevent attacks back.  I had in mind a bruiser as the BSB and either a block of bulls or IGs.  The problem is i won't be able to get enough wounds to prevent attacks back, and their S4 attacks vs my T4 will mean i take wounds, meaning I will almost certainly lose combat, and possibly convincingly.  This is my main conundrum.

Oh forgot...I have belchers in front of the MEs with the tyrant to get off a round of shooting and to tempt the TG into a good charge position for the tyrant/MEs.  But then they will likely be out of the battle.  Hmmm...


Also, I have a unit of gnoblar fighters in front of the other MEs to tempt the steg into charging them, drawing it away from the TG combat.

2 butchers complete the lists, one with two dispels scrolls, and the other with the skull mantle (maybe hit the flank of the TG unit causing a panic check on an and another dispel scroll

thoughts?  i need some fresh ideas.

What minis do you have?  Can you modify your list at all?  I have suggestions on how to rip this army to shreds, but you don't seem to have the right units for the job

It is a friendly game so proxying is permitted.  Suggest away.

OK lets see...he's got mainly big blocks of infantry and a few smaller support units, with lots of magic.

My advice:
You need at least 2 Scraplaunchers, their shots should be aimed at those big blocks of Saurus - they are the perfect target.

Go MSU (multiple small units), include some 3-strong Irongut units but go mainly 3-strong Ogre Bull units for more numbers. Frontal attacks from bigger Ogre units won't have much of an effect on his big ranked Saurus units and your flanks may be left open. You need to outflank, outmanoeuvre and attack from multiple angles.

You may want to deal with one unit of Saurus first with you troops, so you should delay the other unit as much as pos. Use 2 Gorgers and scouting Trappers and you'll be sure to slow it down greatly. When one Gorger shows up, place it behind the Saurus unit. The next should aid the attack on the other unit when he arrives.

Meanwhile, use all your might to smash through the other unit (I'd go for the Temple Guard with Slann with your Tyrant and Ironguts). Tyrant should have the Tenderiser, Wyrdstone Necklace, and the Greedy Fist (you may be able to strip the Slann's magic levels), all Gnoblar upgrades for him would be handy too.

You need lots of magic defence. 3 Butchers if you can, plenty of dispel scrolls.

Don't be afraid of fleeing from the charge of his Stegadon or Krox if it gives you a tactical advantage. Gnoblars or naked Bull units make good baiters, you should have plenty of units available for counter-charges.
Decide upon a couple of Bull units as baiters, and give them Bellowers to aid with their rallying.

Leadbelchers can be primarily used against the skinks (2 units of 2).

As for spells, I'd concentrate on trying to force panic tests and casting as many magic missiles as pos (get a Bangstick too) - magic missiles are a great way of getting rid of those Skink Shamans if they ever stray out into the open. You should also try protecting your Tyrant's unit a little, perhaps with Trollguts. However, he'll probably have no trouble dispelling a lot of your spells, but your Butchers are mainly there for defence so any spells that make it through will be a bonus.  Try mainly casting on one dice as it may help to draw out his dispel dice more quickly. Heal your Butchers should they need it, don't let them go below half wounds or you'll give away VPs.

Minimise your standards, stick one in your Tyrant's unit with a look-out Gnoblar just in case. Putting standards in your other units will be too risky and will likely just give away free VPs.

Hopefully that will help a bit

IGs with a tyrant vs the TG seems like a bad idea.  That means after the charge, the TG attack first, meaning 9 strength 5 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 3's.  That sounds like lots of dead ogres to me, and a lost combat that sees my tyrant fleeing.  The tenderiser is wasted pretty much, unless I directly fight the steg.  And the greedy fist will never get used until I have direct access to the slann, which means all his unit have to be dead pretty much.  He sits/floats in the second rank.

He stays pretty tightly packed, so I am not really going to be able to get into his flanks much, except from the very far outside flanks.

He is a savy player, and isn't going to expose his flanks for an obvious bait&flee.

Scrappies MIGHT work, but S3 vs T4 and decent armor saves by the LM doesn't sound like lots of kills.

He moves directly across the board, so gorgers will be left behind before they show.  We will be up to our teeth in combat in the middle of the board by turn 3.

Hmmm, maybe 3 bull rhinox with the runemaw std (to deflect early magic onto gnoblars) would be the best way through the TG unit.  That would mean after I reduce his unit to below 18, I would outnumber him, and assuming I win combat... he would auto-flee.

The TG unit will be the target of your Scraplaunchers as well (from both shooting and impact hits/charging), it won't be at full strength when your clash with it either if things go as planned.  The Tyrant and Ironguts won't be the only things attacking the TG unit either, with the MSU approach you should be able to flank it with other units.  Quite frankly, you'll have trouble fielding any unit to deal with the TG on their own, without making it hideuously expensive and reducing the number of overall units in your army, leaving your flanks wide open for his support units to take advantage of.  Ironguts are needed for the extra punch when you charge, if you can wipe enough of the TG out after your multiple charges they have no way of recovering and the Slann will be vulnerable.  Facing charges from Ironguts, a Tyrant, 2 Scrappers, flank charges from either Ironguts or Bulls, and being pelted with Scrapper shots while they move up the table, the TG will be screwed.

Getting at his flank should be no problem, there're only Krox and some Skinks in the way.  Bait the Krox or hit them in the flanks and front with your flanking units if your oppoenent won't go for the bait.  

You'd be very very unlucky if you can't get at least one Gorger in an irritating position around the saurus block.  Come on the board as close as possible to the unit, you can even move the Gorger closer when he arrives, and he moves faster than Saurus on foot so I don't see why he'd have trouble catching up.

Scrappers are wonderful against ranked units.  I faced two Lizardmen armies similar to this army in a tournament with my Ogres (ripped both armies to shreads BTW ), without them to help take the rank bonus from the Saurus and without their impact hits, I would've had a much harder time.

I haven't used Rhinox Riders yet, but I do know they are expensive and a unit that size seems to be an 'all eggs in one basket' approach.  You might want to paint a big target on their banner

BTW you know he likes to come at you full steam ahead with his army, don't be too eager to run at him full speed with yours.  Move your flanks out and around to envelop him.  He has hardly any units on the board, you'll have many more.

Hmm, well he had to cancel today.  sigh

I have to admit I was leaning towards the one-basket approach, because this guy is smug and needs a whooping.  lol

3 bull rhinox riders with musician and runemaw banner (to shunt off early spells to gnoblars).  a few turns and those bull rhinoxes would have chewed through the whole TG unit with nary a blow struck back.