Starting an Army

Hey guys i am new to this fourm, it looks interesting, so many things.  I was thinking of starting either a dark elf army or ogre army, i tend to change my opinion pretty quickly, i need info on ogres, advantages and disadvantages.  No offence to anyone but i just cannot stand those gnoblars, i rather exclude them from the army, they remind me of orks, what are these gnoblars used for when playing a game.  I like all of the ogre models, some of the dark elves ones.  I have just enough money to buy a ogre kingdom battalion and a tyrant, do you think this would be a good start if i decide to go for the ogres.  I have heard several people say that they are shot down easily, why is this so, they look pretty tough to me compared to some of the other models in the other armies. If i choose them i would enjoy painting them as there is fewer models to paint and i do not have to spend alot of time paitning them, they have character.  Of the guys who plays with ogres told me that they are not a winning army but a fun with playing army, he goes if you want to win go for dark elves, i'll rather loose and have fun, then win and get bored.  I am really kneeling over to the ogre kingdoms.  Any tips, info, comments are all more than welcome, appreciate all the posts.  Thanks alot everyone.

welcome to the stronghold, tis indeed a great place to be. and of course you should collect ogres. no finer army. first of all ogre kindoms armies are no about loosing and having fun. i play and i win waaaay more than any other army ive ever played and ive been doing this hobby for 11 years and have collected everything goin. including dark elves i might add who i got bored with in a matter of days. ive been playing OK since there release and i have found them challenging but fun, easy to paint yet not repetative, great to convert and solid and strong in battles. anyone who tells you ogres are rubbish hasnt played a competant ogre general yet. alot of the people on this site im sure could give anyone a run for there money with there armies. were fast, we cause fear, we have miniumum of 3 wounds, we have impact hits on the charge, we have some of the hardest charecters going, we have a diverse and differant magic system, we have awesome models, most of which is plastic (cheaper)(my whole army is plastic)
gnoblars i too hated and vowed not to use any at all in my army......they have grown on me. they will grow on u too i promise. they have uses too. a fully ranked unit of 20 models for 40pts isnt something to be sneered at lol. all in all my ogres are my favourite army, they have kept me interested and painting for ages and i dont intend to stop. take a look on this site and some of the awesome examples of peoples models, tactics and army lists. do you enjoy eating and clubbing people to death...of course you do. your and ogre not a weedy elf. welcome aboard.

First off, welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy your stay here, and continue to contribute, whether you end up going for Ogres or Dark Elves.

Dark Elves won't ever be a boring army, so you can take that out of the equation. They actually have far more variation between the units than Ogres do, so some people would claim that they are actually less boring.

Perhaps it would help if you described the sort of army you would like to play. Are you new to the game, or just to Ogres? If you have played before, what armies are you familiar with, and what did you like about them?

I would say, on the whole, that it is a good idea to play the army whose models, background and overall character you like the most. If you live near a GW store, head in and read a few army books, focussing on the pictures and the background fluff. This should give you a good idea of the overall 'feel' of the various armies. I'd also recommend hanging around this forum, and also druchii.net to get an idea of the dark elf thang.

Ogres are not a particularly competitive army. I got into them because I liked the models. Each model is very expensive, so I found that using MSU (multiple small units) tactics (originally a Dark Elf tactic) seems to work for me. The overall feel of wielding an Ogre army is actually the opposite to what they look like. To play well you really need a very good grasp of the movement phase. It is really about manouevring your forces to get the best possible charge situation.

Ogres get shot up because they don't have a very good armour save. Additionally, there are so few wounds/point in the army that a shooty army truly decimates you before you even hit their lines. Average Leadership means we run away a lot, as well. If you imagine a unit of three bulls has under half the number of wounds that a unit of Empire Swordsmen of equivalent cost has.

With that said, a Tyrant will take down pretty much anything, and is rightly feared by pretty much everyone.

There are other threads that detail extensively the pros and cons of the army.

Gnoblars are the runty cousins of the goblins. They are used for several reasons. The most important is to give a cheap rank bonus to combats (1 bull = 17.5 gnoblars).

With regard to your first purchase, if you don't have it already you should really buy the army book. The book and the Battalion would be a good place to start. You will need to make subsequent purchases down the track, but it gives you something to get painting on. If you so choose, you can convert your characters out of bull models.

Cool thanks bork da basher.  
Groghog the Blind i am new to the warhammer, first time player.  I have enoguh money to buy the ogres battalion, a tyrant and an army book.  In dark elves i only like certain types of warriors, i like corsairs, warriors, black sea guard and reaper bolt thrower, i do not like the look of shades, cold ones, dark riders, withc elves.  One thing i do not like about dark elves is that they do not have a battlaion.  I have heard some rumours that they are going to be redone sometime soon, don't know if it is true.
One thing i would like to point out which I saw today and think it's an ogre weakness, i saw two empire cannons don't know what they are called, they both fired and smashed 3 ogres.  The guy i saw playing ogres today still won against empire, he had hunter, tyrant, 6 bulls, 4 leadbleachers, 4 ironguts, couple of maneaters, and 24 gnoblars.  The other guy had, i think around a 100 models of empire, he had heaps of handgunners, spearmen, backed up by cavalry, 2 cannons, and the stuff i cannot remember.
OK that about that, keep posting i would like to here more from you all, different opinions more than welcomed, much info appreciated.  Keep posting, thank you.

2 empire cannons can blow apart 3 of more or less anything easily i wouldnt worry. lol  

It sounds like you are leaning pretty strongly away from Dark Elves then.

As Bork says, you will learn to like gnoblars, although they are a pain in buttock to paint.

If you can afford the army book as well, then I would say that what you propose is a good idea for a first purchase. There are some on this site who really don't like the metal characters, but I love 'em.

If you play against people who have been playing a lot longer than you, be prepared to get obliterated in your first couple of games with ogres. They are a hard army to get right at first, but stick with it. My win record really tends to depend on the quality of my opponent. Occasionally I play against people of tournament calibre, and I always get absolutely caned. I'm hardly a brilliant player, though.

Make sure you get the charge. Bull charge if you can manage it.

i think the CHARGE is what i rely on with my army. when i refer to the CHARGE i mean my whole army...at once. ogres arnt subtle. use em like a sledgehammer, bringing all the attacks and impact hits you can all at once and just roll over unit after unit. obviously you need your supporting units and this is where gnoblars will do you right.
the battalion is always a great way to start an army and i rarely dont buy one when i start a new force. with ogres its like 1000pts if u add a bruiser too or close to it at least. the dark elves....as with all warhammer armies with a few miles under there belt are due for an update but this will take ages. orcs and goblins are next in spring early summer time. then prob vampire counts, dark elves proberly not for a while although they do need it. so you can always wait and see what new models will be released when they are at last redone. because lets face it. there models NEED it. lol

Welcome to the site, I would say if you don't want to paint alot of Gnoblars fighters try using the Gnoblar Trappers, their smaller units and are well worth their points. Also Ogres take a little getting use to if you've played other armys and it's not always the best idea to just to charge in, but that being said you can be over protective. You have to be careful when deploying, screen your units with support units and terrain and be aggressive when you are attacking. Have fun!

thanks, more posts more than welcomed.

is it true that you get 7 gnoblars in the leadbelchers box, i was wondering do you get them when you buy the battalion box as well, and also do you get free gnoblars in other ogre box sets.
Another question is that do gnoblars have to be in a regiment of 24.  Can they be in a regiment of 10, or 12 so you can make 2 smaller regiments.  Responses welcomed.

hey everyone thanks for all your help and your posts, i have decided to go for ogres now, and maybe at the end of the year i will get dark elves, evn if the new models do not come out, currently short on money, ogres are not as expensive as dark elves so i will jus stick with them for now, thanks alot.

soon to get the ogre battalion could someone answer this for me.
is it true that you get 7 gnoblars in the leadbelchers box, i was wondering do you get them when you buy the battalion box as well, and also do you get free gnoblars in other ogre box sets.
Another question is that do gnoblars have to be in a regiment of 24. Can they be in a regiment of 10, or 12 so you can make 2 smaller regiments. Responses welcomed.
I canot believe it buy the battalion add a tyrant and have a 1000 point ogre army, just 15 ogres, 24 gnoblars, very few models, but worth it, at least i can spend descent time painting them as there is not many.
Could you answer the above questions and one more what is a bruiser how do you make it becaus ei searched through the online stores and could not find him.
Thanks alot for responses.

Last question first:

A Bruiser is a hero level character that will lead your army in a game less than 2000 points. The only 'official' Bruiser model was the limited edition one that came with the army deal. This is available occasionally through ebay, although it really isn't necessary. Most people just use the Tyrant model.

I do not recall the exact number, but there are a few gnoblars on the irongut, bull and leadbelcher sprues. I think the are the same for each, but don't have any sprues in front of me, so I can't tell. These do not come with bases. The intent is that you are able to put them on your ogre bases to add character and variation to the unit.

The gnoblar minimum unit size is 20. This does mean that with the extra gnoblars in the battalion you can _probably_ make two units of 20 if you go and buy a bunch of bases. Somebody else can probably give the number of gnoblars with much more certainty than I am.

just a ?.  In the ogre kingdoms core troops you have bulls, ironguts, and gnoblars.  I was wondering can you use all of them in a game, seeing that you get all 3 of these core troops in a battalion box i assumed you would, but that again i am not sure.  Could anyone help please.

Of course you can. There's no limit on Core units in any battle.

SM

You can use the extra Gnoblars for Gnoblar fighters but not all of them look like fighting gnoblars, they look like what they are pack animals, so its up to you if you want to use them like that.

Ah, a relief, cool.
Ok since i am starting an army, after a battlaion box i need to buy some other troops.  So what are these different ogres good for, like in a gaming situations for example i heard that gorgers are excellent to take out war machine.
What are
gnoblars,
normal ogre bulls,
ironguts,
leadbelchers,
maneaters,
tyrants,
hunters,
butchers,
gnoblar trappers,
the scraplaunchers,
yhetees.

GNOBLARS -  cheap as you like. 2 pts each adds much needed numbers. great rank bonus, used for supporting combats, holding table quarters and comedy values

OGRE BULLS - you need at least one good unit. i suggest running 5 with a butcher, dont over equip them, full command is pointless. at most a standard and musician, dont bother with armour and ironfists its expensive and not worth it. 2 hand weapons is good though. use them as your main combat units.

IRONGUTS - these are your elites with good save and 2 handedweapons +2S, best employed against heavy armoured foes like cavelry, stick your tyrant in there and you have one unstoppable combat unit that can take on all comers, use this unit as a line breaker.

LEADBELCHERS - i run these in units of 2, useful for causing some dammage before the big blocks of ogres charge, useful for charging flanks because 2 of them will negate them. good on flanks to protect against light armoured skirmishers and fast cavelry. use this unit to support

MANEATERS - expensive but great. comes with a variety of weapons to arm them with and can have mixed choices in same unit. stubborn and immune to psychology makes them great for holding against a charge, armed with great weapons or cathayan longswords these guys can carve anyone up, bear in mind that they cost lik 80-90pts EACH so protect them well.

TYRANT - this guy is a one man army, tool him up for CC with tenderiser and wyrdstone amulet and this guy can bring down ANYONE. powerful enough to be used by himself in some cases but best at using his LD9 to hold his battle line together. stick him with some ironguts for extra carnage.

HUNTER - always and i mean always buy both sabretusks available to you, go wizard/warmachine crew/charecter hunting, these guys have a great charge range and can bring down most hero level charecters or wizards with ease, also can be used as a charge speed bump if desperate. hunter has a boltthrower effectively which can be useful for taking wounds off large monsters early on but is a waste of points to just sit back and shoot all game. also good on the flanks vs light troops.

BUTCHER - never leave the cave without one at least. 2 is better, give him the skullmantle and put him with a unit of bulls for protection. 3+casting value is great but can be stopped easily.

TRAPPERS - skirmish and scount, these guys are great. harrass/block charges and shoot war machine crew and wizards, these guys are well worth there points.

SCRAPLAUNCHER - killing blow large template thats like a chariot, need i say more. fragile but can be worth its weight in gold if you get a good shot in.

YHETTIES - ignore terrain penalties and count as having magic weapons, handy for charging from an unsuspected quater or dealing with troops like spirit hosts. plus there fast and have a nice 3d6 pursuit movement. a unit of 3 wouldnt go amiss.

Bork is right on with his brief and helpful descriptions. I would recommend trying out different Bull equipment configurations, though. My current preference is ironfists with no armour. The extra point for and iron fist over AHW isn't really going to break the bank.

Get the battalion box and a tyrant, as you have stated previously. This should give you a solid 1000pt army from which to build.

As you build up to higher points values, your purchases will really depend a lot on your playing style. I simply could not live without my Scraplauncher, and dearly love my Yhetties, while my army construction doesn't tend to tolerate Maneaters, I won't take Butchers until 1500, or Gorgers until 2000. Other people feel diametrically opposite to my opinion, though, and I respect that.

Make your core 1000pt army, and work out future purchases from there. It is not important to have everything to begin with, and most friendly opponents will be happy with you proxying models to begin with, as long as they know in advance what they are looking at.

ok, could also someone tell me how many point do these mdoels cost,
Yhettee,
Gorger,
Maneater.
And how would ogres perform against dwarfs, generally speaking.

65
75
80

dwarves are tough and sturdy and in my opinion one of the ogres worst oponants. good shooting and good solid combat blocks are an ogres nightmare. a really shooty dwarf army is capable of taking us out within a turn or two if hes lucky with his rolls. i play dwarves quite often but the army is generic and not heavily geared to shooting and ive had more wins than losses against him but things like gyrocoptors which can prevent marching can be a pain, slayers who are unbreakable too. but its the war machines you need to be wary of. and with the new dwarf army book and the better engineer rules they've never been so deadly.

I games under 1000 pts, the core units have to be at least 2, one of which have to be bulls (for OK).
With a battalion box, and a tyrant/bruiser model, you can validly have 1000 pts:
Bruiser (BoH, HA, 50pts magic items)
6 bulls (2nd HW and standard)
4 IGs (standard)
20 gnoblars
8 trappers (made out of ordinary gnoblars)
2 LBs
2 LBs
Total cost: 922 (+magic items).

Such army is indeed a good 100 pts army, and it's only 75 euro + the bruiser model.
cheers

Don't forget naked bulls can be very effective. Also Yhetees can get shot up pretty quick. So cover them or keep them covered until their ready to strike.

ok, thanks i was wondering what is the minimal number of bulls in a unit, because in a battalion you get 6, i was thinking can you field them in a unit of 3, so thatway i can have 2 units, doing that i can have more gnoblars.
Also what are the minimal numbers of
Ironguts,
Leadbelchers,
Gnoblars,
Gorgers,
Maneaters,
Yhetees.
Thank you for your helpful replies.

Minimal unit size are as followed:

Bulls: 3
Ironguts: 3
Leadbelchers: 2
Gnoblars: 20
Gorgers: 1
Maneaters: 1
Yhetees: 3
Don't forget Trappers I hope you won't leave them out, Minimal unit of Trappers are 8.

@Cetnik: with a battalion box you get 24 gnoblars, so, if you make a unit of 20, you have 4 spare gnoblars, plus a whole bunch of other gnoblars in the bulls/IGs/LBs sprue, for a total of another 20 or so.
Convertion is the key. I, for exemple, changed the heads with empire knights helmets (it's for my fluff...), and gave them some woolen capes... very effective and cheap.
cheers

cool, overall just a general question, do you think games workshop did a good job on ogres, i mean sculpting, rules, etc.

The sculpting is fantastic - I've been a long time fan of Brian Nelson.. Cant say anything there and its one of if not the main reason why I chose ogres..
Rules wise they are acceptable, Phil Kelly did a good job for a first edition armybook I think. In fact I would go as far as saying its most of the other imbalanced book that poses a problem and not the ogres themselves. With that said some units could use a second review.
I also wanna note that he did a really nice job on the fluff, both making it realistic enough to prove valid, but also having a decent amount of fluff in the armybook - I'm especially pleased with the unit description..

cool anyone got a different opinion or similar, the more opinions the better.

Yes, the Ogres are some of the best minis ever released by GW. They all stick to the army's theme and yet each unit is individual and clearly defined by their models. The characters are all awesome (with the exception of Butchers, but that's only my opinion) - you totally believe in the brutality of the Tyrants. A really awesome army to collect

yes i don't like the butchers either.