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Help with Vampire Cheese

original thread ↗

I've had my VC army for about a yar now, but I've basically lost every game I've played, tactically and build-wise I suck.

I need some help on "Cheesy" lists for:
500pts
1500pts
2000pts

In terms of models I have the VC Spearhead, 2 Necromancers, some Zombies and some Fell Bats, I'm willing to buy new things if necessary.
Tactically I try to "Zombie-Rape" the enemy, creating a meat shield, but for some reason I always roll double-1s. (Damn you unlucky hands!)
I'm in need of tips, because I want to at least say that I've won a battle before bragging about other stuff.
Sincerely,

Vyv
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I would drop the zombies. Never seen them producing any results other then loosign combats for their side. Even if they get a flank charge they die in such numbers that it actually doesn't help you out at all. They have their uses for tarpitting something a bit, but they are unreliable.

Popular stuff I've seen here are in 1000ish points games a big unit of black knights with the hatred banner or the double unit strength banner. In  2k+ points I've seen a few blood knights go around. Varghulf is also fielded pretty often. The blood knights are considered to be a big problem, but with their frenzy I have no trouble whatsoever to deal with them. Blood knights come in units of 5 or 6 here.
Pip the butcher's gnob!
Fetch the pack gnob!

Only technicians do not trust technology...

My beast army
http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=15968&st=30
A vampire with the Frost Blade works wonders, especially when it is mounted on a barded mount, and the vampire itself is fully armored. The model creates the illusion of a character that doesn't carry the Frost Blade, and it is tough enough to get into combat.
Ghouls cause some damage.
Quote from: Ganymede on Mar 26, 2009, 11:17:45 AM
If by RAW, you mean "Reg06's Audacious Whims", then you'd be right.
Forum primer
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=7241.0
Going Last Podcast; http://goinglast.net/
Things I always have problems with:
grave guard, knights of the bloodkeep, black knights.

The black knights have about the same ability as yhetees.
stand half behind a forest or other difficult terrain and charge right through it.

Grave guard are the best tarpit in the game I think.
especially with the BSB regeneration banner in it.
Cormorant on thundertusk ASL rule
Quote from: Cormorant on Aug 24, 2011, 05:46:24 PM
Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

Ogre achievements: 41/101
I'm sorry but what's a VC spearhead?

Ghouls are nasty, 2 or 3 big units and a chr with ghoullord (or what the free march-mooved for ghouls ability is called) and a corpsecart or two for asf and necromancer with dance macabre. Othewrwise vampires are far superior chr than necromancers. I always hate facing Varghulf, 2 of them is a nightmare.
Never pay for Zombies, nor should you count on them at all! They are the worst troop in the game for a reason.

It sounds to me like you just don't have the right models to win.

I played this list yesterday against Dwarfs and did very bad things to them (against a lot of shooting too).

Time to try out some finely aged Vampire cheese.

HEROES:
Vampire - Dark Acolyte, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Battle  (170)
Wight King - Wight Blade, Heavy Armor, Shield, BSB, Drakenhoof Banner (225)
Necromancer - Corpse Cart w/ Unholy Lodestone, Book of Arkhan, Black Periapt (205)

CORE:

Crypt Ghouls x 10 (80)
Crypt Ghouls x 10 (80)
Dire Wolves x 5 (40)

SPECIAL:

Grave Guard x 15 - Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of the Barrows (270)
Black Knights x 5 - Nightmare, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Musician, Standard (144)

RARE:
Blood Knights x 5 - Barded Nightmare, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Musician (285)

Total: 1,499 (of 1,500 points)

I would probably drop the Corpse Cart for something more useful if I were going to play this list again. I just don't see the benefit of having it in a unit as its so easy to take down the Necro on top of it.
Forum Primer - Please read! - The Bellower

Ogre Achievements Complete: 10/101
I hate fighting grave guards. Those things are a black hole, and just don't die. That means you should take them.
Quote from: Ganymede on Mar 26, 2009, 11:17:45 AM
If by RAW, you mean "Reg06's Audacious Whims", then you'd be right.
Forum primer
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=7241.0
Going Last Podcast; http://goinglast.net/
At 500 points there isnt much you can do, I would get a vampire general (just with dreadknight to keep him cheap), a few skeleton/ghoul units, maybe a corpse cart.

At 1500 I would go three vampires, two with dark acolyte, one with dread knight, a book of arkhan somewhere, a flayed haubrek, maybe a magic weapon or two, some master powers, then a few more skeleton and ghoul units, a corpse cart, and a black knight unit. The a varghulf if you can fit it in.

At 2000 the cheesiest lists are usually deathstar ones. The best IMO is a unit of 8ish black knights, a big 'ole vamp lord, a BSB with regen/banner of blood keep banner, the standard bearer with the hatred banner, barding, then a few units of skeletons/ghouls, corspe cart with necro, maybe a zombie unit, maybe another vampire on foot.


And BTW a vampire player I know who has done well in quite a few tournies says that blood knights are terrible, so I wouldn't take them if I were you.
Things to ponder:

If 'pro' is the opposite of 'con', does that mean 'progress' is the opposite of 'congress'?

Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard?

Isn't it a bit worrying that doctors call what they do 'practice'?

Why is a boxing ring square?
And BTW a vampire player I know who has done well in quite a few tournies says that blood knights are terrible, so I wouldn't take them if I were you.

Blood Knights are terrible, except for their 2+ Armor Save, Frenzy, ItP, Unbreakable, 3 attacks at S5 and WS5, being Vampires, and so on.  :roll:

Now if the question is are they overcosted and are there better Rare options ... well that is a matter up for discussion.

Forum Primer - Please read! - The Bellower

Ogre Achievements Complete: 10/101
I'm sorry but what's a VC spearhead?

Games Workshop has had a deal for you when certain armies were released, that you could get your hands on the book and the new models two weeks before official release.
They were about 200 Euros depending on how many models were in. (that's about 150 Pounds in that time)
They did about 4 of them and Vampire Counts were one of them.
Cormorant on thundertusk ASL rule
Quote from: Cormorant on Aug 24, 2011, 05:46:24 PM
Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

Ogre achievements: 41/101
Games Workshop has had a deal for you when certain armies were released, that you could get your hands on the book and the new models two weeks before official release.
They were about 200 Euros depending on how many models were in. (that's about 150 Pounds in that time)
They did about 4 of them and Vampire Counts were one of them.

So what's in the VC spearhead?  :lol:
Blood Knights are terrible, except for their 2+ Armor Save, Frenzy, ItP, Unbreakable, 3 attacks at S5 and WS5, being Vampires, and so on.  :roll:

Now if the question is are they overcosted and are there better Rare options ... well that is a matter up for discussion.


Exactly, frenzy. This can possibly ruin a unit which costs a quarter of your army. If they didn't have frenzy, they would be amazing, but not having control over such an expensive unit is not good. Frenzy is usually best on cheap units to give them a boost, like marauders, or units who you can keep control of. A VC player has no good way of controlling them. They have dire wolves, but since they're ItP they dont have a reliable way to stop them, I hate not being able to flee.
Things to ponder:

If 'pro' is the opposite of 'con', does that mean 'progress' is the opposite of 'congress'?

Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard?

Isn't it a bit worrying that doctors call what they do 'practice'?

Why is a boxing ring square?
Games Workshop has had a deal for you when certain armies were released, that you could get your hands on the book and the new models two weeks before official release.
They were about 200 Euros depending on how many models were in. (that's about 150 Pounds in that time)
They did about 4 of them and Vampire Counts were one of them.

So what's in the VC spearhead?  :lol:

It contained/contains;
1 Army Book, 1 Vlad von Carstein, 1 Vampire Lord, 10 Skeletons, 10 Crypt Ghouls, 10 Dire Wolves, 10 Grave Guard, 1 Corpse Cart and 1 Varghulf.

It's just an upgraded battalion box.
Quote from: Ganymede on Mar 26, 2009, 11:17:45 AM
If by RAW, you mean "Reg06's Audacious Whims", then you'd be right.
Forum primer
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=7241.0
Going Last Podcast; http://goinglast.net/
Blood knights are easy to deal with. Bait, flee and counter into their flank. Same goes for black knights, though its a bit more tricky to set up. They dont have to charge.
Pip the butcher's gnob!
Fetch the pack gnob!

Only technicians do not trust technology...

My beast army
http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=15968&st=30
As  a VC/undead player of about 7 years i may be able to help. I have been invited to 2 of the Masters tourneys in australia and normally place in the top 3-4. I now place OK as i consider them a challenge to play compared to my beloved walking life impaired.

If you want a cheesy list, it is very easy. but i suggest you dont go down this path. It wont give you many repeat games and people will think you are a poor player just cos you use certain combos. for kicks i will go to a 2250pt tourney with only 4 PD as a VC player. Good fun as you really push your self. But if cheese is what you are after...

I will say that i disagree with most of what has been said.  Blood knights are a truly awesome unit that can be used with a little care to wipe whole armies away. A unit of zombies should always be bought. they are cheap and will form an effective tar pit. Plus they count towards a minimum core choice. For the same amount of points you can get 10 ghouls. then you need to spend alot of magic raising that unit up. It really puts you on the back foot magic wise. Most experienced gamers will give zombies a wide berth as they know that if they dont wipe the unit out on the charge, it will suck them up for the whole  game. But any way...

i dont have my book on me and am going from memory (work on a minesite and dont go home for another 2 weeks)

500 points
Vampire
dreadknight, infinite hatred
nightshroud

20 zombies
16 ghouls
5 black knights no barding etc.

this gives you
a very solid hero that will always go 1st and reroll misses
1 awesome flanking etheral move cav unit
a solid assault infantry block with the vamp in it
a solid tar pit

3 Pd, 3 DD

1000 points
Vampire
dreadknight, infinite hatred
nightshroud

Wight king
nightmare
bsb

necro on corpse cart with -1 casting
book of arkhan, d scroll

25 zombies
17 ghouls
16 ghouls
2x 5 black knights no barding etc.

this gives you
a very solid hero general that will always go 1st and reroll misses
2 awesome flanking etheral move cav units. These can easily roll up a flank together. putting the wight king in one of these will protect them from crumbling
2 solid assault infantry block with the vamp in one
a solid tar pit
great anti magic defense from the CC. -1 to cast spells and the d scroll will help.

4 Pd, 4 DD, 2 bound items

2000 points - this is where real cheese can start.
Vampire Lord level 3
avatar of death, infinite hatred, red fury
crown of stupidity, dread lance
zombie dragon

Wight king - in with grave guard
barded nightmare
bsb - regen banner

vampire - in with blood knights
blood drinker,
dread knight, infinite fury

vampire in with ghouls behind grave guard
helm of command
dread knight

1 corpse cart with -1 casting
6 dire wolves
20 zombies
15 ghouls
15 ghouls

16 grave guard, banner of the barrows, full command
5 black knights no barding etc.
4 Blood knights, muso, banner of hatred
3 wraiths

this gives you
a very solid general that will wipe out whole armies by himself when done properly
cheap etheral move cav unit.
the wolves just stop the blood knights from charging the wrong target.
you can put the regen banner in with the blood knights, its a personal choice. they probably need it more. But if its with the grave gurad, they will never ever die.
3 solid assault infantry block with the vamp in one.
a solid tar pit
great anti magic defense from the CC. -1 to cast spells and the d scroll will help.
ethereal skirmishers that frustrate every player bar skaven/ daemons etc.
can put the book of arkhan in if need be. i love it.

7 Pd, 6 DD, 1 bound item

sorry if there are alot of mistakes, going off memory for points etc.
Quote from: rocdocta on Jun 20, 2014, 03:36:24 PM
Quote from: Phazael on Jun 17, 2014, 07:53:15 PM
Roc, your math is correct, but bereft of tactical considerations

yep that sums how i play =)
Something you need to keep in mind, especially in smaller points games, is that with the new book, all undead units must be within 6" of a vampire or 12" of your general in order to make march moves. Keeping your general safe is always a top priority for VC, but in smaller battles its even more essential, since you may only have 1 other vampire which then would have to keep your whole army in line.

In 2000pts, the amount of units you field is even larger, and if you want to have an army that does more than just huddle together and receive a charge you'll want a Vampire General, Hero and maybe even another Hero or Vampire model (Varghulf, Black Coach, and Blood Knights are all Vampires and support march moves), like a Varghulf paired with a flanking unit of Black Knights.

Instead of writing a tactics article, I'll link you to one: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat50038&categoryId=400027&aId=2300007 .


As an undead general you must know your greatest advantages: Magic and Fear. Enemy shooting and combat can deal a lot of damage to your basic troops, as even skeletons will have a hard time beating most enemy Core choices. But since all Vampire and Necromancers begin with knowing Invocation of Nehek, even if you give them no magic upgrades, your heroes can raise your units back to starting strength - or beyond, if a character has the accompanying Bloodline Power. In this way a unit of 20 skeletons with HW/Shield, Standard, and perhaps a Vampire Hero as some combat support can shrug off losses and use its static Combat Resolution to win a combat, and possibly auto-break the enemy if they outnumber them due to fear.

Your other key spell is Vanhel's Danse Macabre, and it's reason enough to squeeze in some Necromancers or giving your lord Forbidden Lore. An extra move/charge opportunity is huge and this spell will literally win you the game, so expect your opponents to be expecting it.


Core troops seem pretty bad, and for the most part they are, but that's in terms of killing stuff. Zombies are dirt cheap but won't kill a THING and can stall enemy units for multiple turns, since they will never run from combat even in the face of horrendous casualties. Skeletons, at twice the points, are the mainstay unit of the VC, with an OK save, static combat res. from ranks + standard, the ability to take magic standards and be raised by Invocation. So take some!

(Ghouls vs. Skeletons - The debate over which core unit should be taken over the other still rages. They're both effective and armies succeed with either, so just know that Ghouls are more offensive/capable of causing kills with 2 poison attacks each, while Skellies benefit from command options, magic standards or spears.)

Grave Guard (GG) are your best infantry, as even the basic outfit of HW/shield gives them a good save in cc. Some players use the Drakenhof Banner to give Regeneration, but this is both very common, expensive, and predictable. With decent magic support they will have the same survival rate, and adding something like a Wight King BSB w/Sword of Kings for challenges and/or giving the unit the Banner of the Barrows so all the Guard (and the WK) get +1 to hit. GG will probably form the center of your battle line, and they make great anvils to keep the enemy in place while you get a flanking charge.


Overall, take some good units of skellies that can take some punishment, maybe a unit of zombies to hold one flank, or some grave guard to form the battle line. Keep good Vampire coverage with a General in the center and other vampires where you need them, even for your flanking elements. Your Lord can be good at combat or magic, but risking him in combat can be disastrous, and he can be the magical core of your force casting Invocation 5 or so times each turn to keep your units going strong. Cast Vanhel's Danse to get those critical charges or to make your units strike first/get bonuses to hit and swing things your way. You can challenge characters and monsters with Skeleton/GG champions and then resurrect the champion back the next turn, causing endless headaches. With a solid core of troops backed up by some good magic, a combat character or two, and some hard-hitting choices, you'll learn to get better and see what parts of your army really do what. There's no need for you to use cheesy lists or un-fluffy deathstar units, and doing that nearly always makes games less satisfying. Keep at it and you'll be fine. Unless you're playing to win a tourney, it's always more fun to have a close game with a nice player.
Quote from: machina on Dec 28, 2006, 02:27:16 PM
Ogres have a few good points. In summary, I like them because they make me sexy.
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